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Hugsbox 14 hours ago [-]
Yesterday I tried to google "can the Halifax Wanderers still make the CPL playoffs?"
So obviously what appears right at the top is the AI summary, which told me "they've already secured their #4 position and made the playoffs". I knew this wasn't true, and I guess I could have just scrolled down a bit further and found my answer but now I was curious.
So I said "that's not true, they're still #5, what I want to know is _could they still make the playoffs_"
It says they've got an upcoming game against Ottawa, and if they win their chances are good. That game has already taken place, so I correct it again and finally I get a reasonable answer.
My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering? Like, I can't wrap my head around that. The answer is on the same page as its hallucination. It could have done a cursory look around before first hallucinating something completely false, and when corrected the first time giving me outdated information. It's meant to be A SEARCH ENGINE!
safety1st 7 hours ago [-]
Google.com is REALLY bad right now in my opinion.
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
The ads have proliferated, and rarely have what I need.
Video search results also take up a lot of the page, and are almost never what I want if I haven't clicked over to the Video tab. Again, just a big waste of space.
Speaking of the Video tab its accuracy/relevancy has gotten worse too.
The organic results have deteriorated, and are still competitive, but are no longer clearly and consistently better than Duckduckgo.
So it's duckduckgo as the default for me on all devices now. If I don't find what I want, which is maybe 30% of the time, I switch over to G just by adding !g to the query. G might have what I need in about half of those cases.
You can see why a lot of people just ask an LLM to do the web searching for them.
Across the board, this is all quite bad compared to web search from 10+ years ago.
If there's a single thing which has really pushed me away from Google, it's simply google.com devoting so much of the page to things that aren't organic web search.
microtonal 5 hours ago [-]
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong. Then it gets reformulated with the typical confidence of an LLM.
Very scary because at the same time I notice people taking the AI overview answers as truth.
roryirvine 1 hours ago [-]
This is another area where DDG shines - it doesn't have a commercial relationship with Reddit, so doesn't push it in its results.
DDG's 'Search Assist' AI overviews are pretty basic but they tend to be sourced from Wikipedia and traditional media outlets rather than forums and blogs - they can be out of date, but are generally a lot less "spicy" than the sources that Google use.
I guess Google is much better-optimised for engagement but that's not what I'm looking for, meaning that DDG is a better choice for me.
krige 2 hours ago [-]
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong.
If only! I've seen it sourcing reddit comments, but when you follow the link, the comment is either completely unrelated or does not say what the LLM claims it is saying.
kombookcha 51 minutes ago [-]
I don't know what causes this to happen, but I've noticed it too and it distinctly feels like source laundering. How often do people actually verify that the sources say what the AI claims? Probably vanishingly rare, right? Everyone else gets the impression that the claims have actual sources of some kind.
ethbr1 21 minutes ago [-]
In most instances where I've seen it, it's on niche topics where a Reddit post may be the easiest place to find any relevant content.
I expect somewhere in the AI harness there's a branch that effectively mandates "You must always answer."
Which results in it grasping at Reddit comment straws.
And which, in typically modern Google fashion, nobody there gives a shit about fixing, because the PR made their top-level AI KPI go brr.
Google is increasingly proof that you can't run an effective scaled tech company without a Gates or Jobs who occasionally uses the fucking product themselves and descends with fiery vengeance on whatever team drifted too far from user alignment.
gloosx 4 hours ago [-]
The actual scary part is that people already manipulate and poison the google overviews on purpose.
It is very easy to bring your bs to the TOP spot on google at the moment with carefully crafted reddit comments and blogs, and it's not hard to get to the traffic and clicks this way.
This is what the new SEO is about, I know a bunch of people who are doing this and they are praying it is not getting fixed anytime soon.
latentsea 2 hours ago [-]
The real alignment problem. Getting humans to behave.
dinkblam 17 minutes ago [-]
isnt that why we invented religion?
phoronixrly 2 hours ago [-]
Yeah, good luck getting me to be a good little source of information for LLM companies to profit from.
tripzilch 25 minutes ago [-]
Thanks for your pushback, sir. You're completely right.
anilakar 3 hours ago [-]
If I type exact document identifiers, the LLM either tells me that I have either mistyped something or that I am searching for a specific document. Hell yeah, I am doing exactly that! Give me the link instead of babbling about it!
breakingcups 3 hours ago [-]
I've seen medical specialist take Google's AI answer as truth. Nutty.
3 hours ago [-]
kibibu 5 hours ago [-]
The web search gives the impression that it's grounding its answers, but if you ask it for something new or non-existent it'll still make shit up.
gambiting 4 hours ago [-]
I'm in several facebook groups for cars and bikes, and holy smokes, someone asks a question and usually the top response is someone literally pasting in a screenshot of a google AI generated response....which is wrong like, solid 50% of the time. And then you point it out and people get aggro on you. I hate it.
walrus01 2 hours ago [-]
I have literally seen multiple screenshots now of people pasting Google Gemini answers in an attempt to tell other people whether something they're doing is legal or not in a particular state, as it relates to NFA item firearms in the USA... And they seem to take it as the gospel truth. People are literally risking federal prison over information that Gemini pulled out of the ass-end of some internet forum of multiple cletus-intellect level individuals talking about their homemade 3D printed silencers. And then Gemini further hallucinates and fabricates new ways to parse that information different than how the original person wrote it. It's astonishing.
lukan 14 minutes ago [-]
No worries, when the police and judges use the same bad AI to verify those claims as well, all is fine. 2 bugs cancel each other out and all that ..
rezonant 7 hours ago [-]
I've been on DDG on all my devices for a few years. I used to use !g somewhat regularly but these days it's extremely rare. I realized that I would just search DDG with my first stab at a query and then revise the query when using !g and I'd get the result I wanted. So I just stopped using !g and just revised my query on DDG and then I basically never had to use Google Search.
WA 5 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately, DDG's spam filters are basically useless. I used DDG for many years without !g as well and recently, the first page contains mostly AI generated garbage blogs. Not for every search query, but for example for everything related around the house or garden.
TimeBearingDown 4 hours ago [-]
I've had similar issues, but found the situation in some niche topics improved after I used Add Feedback -> AI-generated a bunch.
khuston 7 hours ago [-]
It’s the wrongness that bothers me. I wish Google would just link sources where it thinks the answer is, but don’t bother trying to answer directly if it’s wrong 10% of the time.
Walf 6 hours ago [-]
Oh it does that, too, with tiny little button annotations, though the sources regularly offer no support to its conclusion. It very much depends on the topic, sometimes the sources are great, other times they're or irrelevant or very poor quality. Always worth clicking through to them if you're going to even read the AI summary.
I normally use a quick search that has the `udm=web` query parameter to avoid the slop, but it seems they're putting less effort into ensuring relevant results there. Then, I'm forced to use AI mode to get to what I'm after, even if that's only a better set of keywords for a slopless search.
lnx01 2 hours ago [-]
Adjust your browser's search engine setting for Google and set it to append "&udm=14" to the URL, that'll force it to bring up the "Web" tab without annoying useless "helpful" other stuff.
SV_BubbleTime 7 hours ago [-]
While shitting on YouTube and video…
I was taking with a family member about fentanyl zombies. They had never seen the lean/bend. So I pull up Google and click video which is YouTube results… ALL AI. All of it. All a couple months old, all filler, faked, a few scenes stitched together on repeat and AI voice reading AI script.
It is fucking amazing to me that Google let YouTube fall so far so fast.
I don’t even click a video if it’s less than a year old now. Want to see a praying mantis eat a grasshopper? Wonder how clay is refined? Better off with an 11 year old Discovery Channel clip than anything 2026.
martin- 5 hours ago [-]
I just tried googling "fentanyl fold" and switching to the video tab, and zero of the first ten results were AI. They were also mostly not from YouTube. I also tried the same search on YouTube, and no AI there either among the first ten results (I didn't bother with the Shorts). I don't know why we get so different results.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
Are you in Europe? Google was sued to stop prioritising YouTube in video results.
microtonal 5 hours ago [-]
Same with reviews of tech products. A lot of them just stitch together product shots/videos from the manufacturer and have an AI voice ‘comparing’ the products. Especially if it’s more niche’s, often a third to half the videos are slop.
motbus3 3 hours ago [-]
Maybe intentionally. If you know you won't find things, they know you are going to use their ai just to not have to type it elsewhere. I am strongly considering kagi
latentsea 2 hours ago [-]
>Google.com is REALLY bad right now in my opinion.
It is completely cooked. I tried to google a coding question today, same like you would have done 4 years ago instead of asking an LLM. I didn't get any SERPS, just an AI answer. I asked myself... is this even google.com anymore??? Sure as heck didn't feel like it.
Melatonic 5 hours ago [-]
They became the thing they originally killed
krige 2 hours ago [-]
Didn't the put the guy who killed yahoo in charge?
beloch 13 hours ago [-]
This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words. LLM's don't "think" or "reason" in the normal definition of those terms. They can do some pretty amazing things, but still screw up basic things like telling you something that is obviously wrong and contradicts the top search results.
LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly. This may be why they are so difficult to constrain. You could give them something equivalent to the laws of robotics, but following laws requires thought processes they simply don't have.
I'm actually sort of amazed Google doesn't make people accept some kind of butt-covering EULA and post disclaimers about the inaccuracy of results before even showing you their AI's output. Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
baubino 9 hours ago [-]
> LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly.
I have nothing to add. Just wanted to save this quote for posterity. Thank you.
_kb 8 hours ago [-]
The similar comparison I enjoy is “a golden retriever on LSD”.
If you apply the dogs on acid mental model it helps establish appropriate levels of trust.
SV_BubbleTime 7 hours ago [-]
It falls apart fast because no golden retriever is finding errors in my CMake file.
tripzilch 18 minutes ago [-]
You just have to trust the exponentials
sham1 6 hours ago [-]
Then again, have you ever asked a golden retriever about CMake errors? Rubber ducking is a real thing, after all. Besides, a golden retriever would be a good morale boost if nothing else.
ben_w 2 hours ago [-]
ML in general is alien to how we think of intelligence.
The closest I can make a biology analogy, is if someone had an immortal and congenitally-brain-damaged large rodent, and mapped tokens to different scent molecules, and spent 800,000 years training it on how well it could imagine the next smell in the sequence before even considering making it conversational.
Yes, it can do a lot.
But also, it took a long "subjective" (if it even has that) time to get there; and despite it being really bad at learning from examples, it is pretty surprising that such a small brain was even capable of learning so much at all, even though it had an effectively unbounded (by biological standards) amount of time spent on that training.
JSR_FDED 4 hours ago [-]
That’s more of a Labrador job
_kb 3 hours ago [-]
You just need to partake in some strong psychedelics with the dog first.
Melatonic 5 hours ago [-]
But have you asked the Steven Hawking of Golden Retrievers ? And then added LSD ?
VCFundedGenYer 12 hours ago [-]
LLMs still can't do math nor count letters in words. Nothing has changed there.
walrus01 12 hours ago [-]
This is true but a sufficiently smart LLM (run in a harness like opencode, no special MCP, no customization done whatsoever) will quickly turn out a basic 1 to 2 page sized python script to do the math. They can't do the math with any guarantee of accuracy with their own internal reasoning since it's a language model.
But, for example, if you ask deepseek v4 flash 0731 to produce a python script to calculate the distance or azimuth directions between two points on an oblate spheroid using the vincenty and haversine geodetic formulas, it'll turn out the factually accurate vincenty and haversine formulas which has a perfect 100% correlation with what is hard coded into human-written GIS software. These things are clearly in its training data set from whatever whole-internet-crawl/scrape built the training set.
Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to re-implement the Karney formula (which is considerably more complex than Vincenty), just in case I ever had a need to calculate the distance between two points down to the nanometer, and it did it: https://www.google.com/search?&q=karney+formula+geodetic+
You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path, but saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore. More precisely it's that they can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math. And often producing a basic one-off tool that does the math takes less than a few seconds, then it runs it, and will spit back the results.
Deepseek v4 flash 0731 (a somewhat randomly chosen example) isn't even particularly sophisticated, large, or capable compared to a GLM5.3 size model or Kimi K3 size thing.
AdieuToLogic 8 hours ago [-]
> Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to ...
LLMs are neither smart nor stupid. They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
> You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path ...
Again, LLMs do not "hallucinate." They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
See also anthropomorphism[0].
> More precisely it's that [LLMs] can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math.
This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation. To wit, given enough variations of:
bc -e '1 + 2'
bc -e '41 + 1'
...
LLMs can identify the addition expression in "What is 4 + 1?" and then emit a `'bc "4 + 1"'` command to produce a response. This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs[1] excel.
by that reasoning then neither are there smart or stupid designs, questions, answers, or any of the millions of things that were described as smart or stupid, that did not possess any brain to actually be smart or stupid long before LLMs showed up.
The analogical process implied in many common English usages means that describing an LLM as smart or stupid is perfectly reasonable.
bryanrasmussen 7 hours ago [-]
I'll just note here that sure, there are people who go around thinking that LLMs are actually endowed with the capacity to reason, but generally I find the people who think this do not know what an LLM and will just use the name "ChatGPT"
SR2Z 6 hours ago [-]
What would it take for you to say that an LLM can reason?
The completions they provide are generally internally consistent. We're at the point where they can produce proofs that eluded human mathematicians for centuries. VLMs and self driving cars can handle ambiguity and run safely in a variety of situations.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it just makes sense to call it a duck and put off the philosophy for when it might make a difference.
skygazer 4 hours ago [-]
I think humans have to reason because we don’t already have a statistical embedding of the solution pattern built in. We have vastly less rote knowledge crammed into our heads and so require creative synthesis to span the gaps.
With LLMs the trick is revealing their existing relevant embedded knowledge more reliably. They’ve almost literally seen it all before, and the trick is dialing it in. The reasoning tokens help shape the autoregressive attention lens that focuses on and enables recall of the already-experienced answer.
It is interesting that “reasoning” has a similar outward appearance, but since LLMs are built to
mimic outward appearance from trillions of examples, you can’t infer underlying mechanism from appearance.
nevertoolate 5 hours ago [-]
It looks like a next token predictor, walks like a next token…
You get my point. It definitely doesn’t look like my elderly neighbour, nor like my daughter, etc. It is confusing but very simple at the same time.
Kim_Bruning 4 hours ago [-]
Compare grep, sed, and your whole constellation of unix tools that accept characters on stdin and emit them on stdout and stderr; and where you can pipe them together. We can technically call them all 'next character predictors', despite their very different functions.
Don't confuse the stream for the function.
(Bonus: stick ```claude -p``` in your pipe if you want to watch modern tools mesh with traditional)
hardbass 3 hours ago [-]
It looks like a random bunch of inert chemicals to me, doesn't sound like some organic chemicals and electrical signals could result in consciousness.
How are you sure? Another example I like to clarify my thought is, if a "simulation" factors RSA numbers reliably, is it a "simulation"?
gambiting 4 hours ago [-]
>>What would it take for you to say that an LLM can reason?
Nothing, because LLMs can't reason and never will. It would have to be a completely different kind of technology altogether.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
How do you know they can't, was the question?
angry_octet 4 hours ago [-]
There are people with strong emotional attachments to their LLMs, people who consult them on every decision and delegate the most basic math or problem solving. For many people, they are magic, the djinn/angels/demons/saints they consort with to navigate their lives.
I know that there will be children named ChatGPT and Claude. There are probably already religions forming to worship agentic spirits.
hardbass 3 hours ago [-]
Its the exact opposite of magic. It is magical thinking to feel consciousness must require something beyond normal physics without any given proof yet. It is the opposite of magic to think other physical processes like LLM's/agents could potentially be conscious.
4 hours ago [-]
Kim_Bruning 4 hours ago [-]
Wait a second, none of it? How about formal reasoning? Regular IF-THEN-ELSE can do simple logic, and prolog can do inference already. So are you saying LLMs can't do stuff that computers have been doing for ages?
To test this for some of my own uses, I've had this quick benchmark with progressively harder reasoning needed to understand novel prose. Each generation of models I've tested can unravel more layers of deliberately misleading writing; while meanwhile I've seen humans give up on the first question.
So either the models are applying reasoning, or some form of magic is happening.
KPGv2 6 hours ago [-]
Yeah and there are people who worship feces, but that doesn't stop the rest of us from freely saying "holy shit" and not correcting each other saying "technically it's not holy, and you shouldn't say that, because you might enable one of those poop worshippers."
We can't tailor our linguistic shorthand to the lowest common denominator. Also we're on HN, not talking to an octogenarian US senator.
hardbass 5 hours ago [-]
Just to clarify do you believe in souls or not?
UpsideDownRide 6 hours ago [-]
Nah it's not reasonable to use words that send you down a wrong concept path.
martin- 4 hours ago [-]
We've always used metaphors like that when talking about computers, without anyone having any complaints.
mapontosevenths 6 hours ago [-]
By this logic a human is only $130-$160 worth of Oxygen, Carbon, Nitrogen and some trace elements. Perhaps structure sometimes makes things that are more valuable than their inputs?
That said, this is also inaccurate at a technical level.LLM's are very capable of doing math and they ARE calculating internally. Most of what they do is calculation, not storage. It's just not done in a way that it's trivial to explain here.
It's described in some detail below, though it's a bit dense.
I'm not anthropomorphizing anything, I literally said that the training data for the formulas and equations is baked into it. It only "knows" things because a crawler and scraper acquired the information from an existing written source. In just about the same way that information is baked into a printed encyclopedia.
hodgehog11 7 hours ago [-]
This is not even remotely accurate. "Baking information" like into a "printed encyclopedia" is memorization. It has been shown, time and time again, that LLMs do not merely memorize. It is not even possible for it to do so at scale. It can memorize some things, yes, but it is forced during the training procedure to bake general concepts into intermediate layers (this is why transfer learning works), analogous to compression. One can make several arguments that compression and intrinisic feature sparsity is the closest mathematical explanation to understanding that we have.
walrus01 5 hours ago [-]
It is completely possible to ask an LLM a series of increasingly more esoteric and discrete questions until you find precisely what information did, or did not make it into the model. If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Kim_Bruning 1 hours ago [-]
My favorite test is to just ask it to add two very large numbers or do other math of that sort. (this is also part of my favorite answer to the chinese room).
You'd be surprised how few digits you need to make a problem that is presumably unique in earth history. For a typical sum, the number of pre-existing answers would need to scale with 10^n lines of text where n is the number of digits. This expands out of control REALLY quickly. A quick guesstimate has you somehow reading out of a literal black hole at n=21 digits if your LUT is on paper, or n=26 digits if you're using modern HDD technology. O:-)
hodgehog11 4 hours ago [-]
Now this is true, I do agree with this. There is indeed a good amount of memorization that is still taking place; see [1]. But it definitely isn't all memorization, or indeed, majority memorization. And even if we are able to extract things verbatim like this, we do not know how this is stored internally, as this may simply be the text that, with the rest of the internet in context, can be very radically compressed.
But in general, yes, the LLM cannot know about concepts that are far outside of its training set. Humans are the same, I would argue. If you add a good amount of your own knowledge into its context, or better yet, into finetuning, you might find it surprisingly easy to get it caught up on that material.
[1] Ahmed, A., Cooper, A. F., Koyejo, S., & Liang, P. (2026). Extracting books from production language models. arXiv preprint arXiv:2601.02671. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.02671.
AdieuToLogic 4 hours ago [-]
>>> I'm not anthropomorphizing anything ...
Yes you are, regarding LLMs at least. Here's why:
just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to ...
[be] capable of understanding if it's gone off on
a hallucinatory path ...
"Smart" in this context is a subjective value judgement.
"Hallucinations" are only experienced by living organisms.
You then went on to state:
> If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Again, "hallucinating" is not something an algorithm can do. Also, determining factuality is again subjective based on the person assessing the information.
walrus01 4 hours ago [-]
You ever heard of something called a metaphor, guy? I use the word "smart" as shorthand to describe something that scores highly in a number of coding and terminal use benchmarks (as compared to, let's say, a 30B size model from one and a half years ago.
You will note that in my original comment I very specifically said "deepseek v4 flash 0731", which by many benchmarks/metrics, is "smarter" (again, this is a metaphor) than a smaller or older model. It is also specifically known to be relatively capable of producing code and formulas on demand in several common languages.
And "hallucinating" to mean "outputs plausible sounding gibberish that doesn't hold together consistently". Of course there's no actual hallucination going on.
1 hours ago [-]
hardbass 3 hours ago [-]
You have 'logic' in your name. You would be well aware of the physical Church Turing statement and as of yet it has held up. Everything, including our brain, as we currently know, is an algorithm.
astrange 7 hours ago [-]
No, most of a modern LLM's training time is spent in RLVR, which does not "acquire information from an existing source". You can RL behaviors into a randomly initialized neural network.
hodgehog11 7 hours ago [-]
This is true, but you're not going to get anywhere. The pretraining phase is necessary to immensely reduce variance in the RLVR stage. Once there, RLVR has a surprising tendency to only restrict the generated space further. This is not true of RLHF, by the way, which I find to be particularly fascinating, but I digress.
hodgehog11 7 hours ago [-]
During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously. It encompasses virtually everything. It is totally meaningless. So to say "nothing more" is effectively also a tautology.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be saying these things in 2026. Where have you been? What have you been looking at? How many articles explaining why the "statistical parrot" analogy fails have you missed? How much mental gymnastics do you have to do to explain how a modern LLM can solve novel math problems that fall really far outside of its training set?
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever reasonable definition you want to provide to the word "understand". For example, the identification of the addition expression is understanding, and no, it does not do tool calling for basic arithmetic any more than humans might. Isolation of individual concepts in intermediate layers can already be demonstrated, or else transfer learning wouldn't possibly work. Nobody is saying that LLMs are humans. But we need labels for some of the things that we observe and dismissing them because "statistical" is laughable.
Look at the proof of this: https://github.com/anthropics/formal-math/blob/795efb86f1917... . Forget the Lean, look at the underlying argument construction. At the very least, this is continuing from an argument that was hinted at in the literature in 2024, but these proceedings were difficult enough that humans were not able to do them within two years. Do you attribute this to the harness alone? If so, that's a pretty sophisticated bit of engineering, I would say! Probabilities are far too small to argue infinite monkey theorem.
If there was even a shred of a reasonable argument that LLMs were incapable of concept extraction and manipulation, I and my colleagues would be all over it. We would relish in it. It would bring us comfort. It is unbelievable that people think they can spew whatever basic garbage they think of as a gotcha, and think that minds all over the world haven't already considered that. This is like climate denial at this point.
AdieuToLogic 6 hours ago [-]
> During conversation, we are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon our training set. Seriously, write that definition out rigorously.
If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
epihelix 4 hours ago [-]
> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
AdieuToLogic 4 hours ago [-]
>> If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
> Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
I have yet to see an LLM say "hello" to a neighbor. I have done so and can definitively assure you "most individuals" can tell the difference.
thereforegrin 2 hours ago [-]
do you have a neighbour LLM who does not say "hello" when it sees you and THAT is how you know it's an LLM?
I'm a bit confused by your argument because I too have some neighbors who don't say "hello" when they see me. Are they LLMs too, you think?
Consciousness is a thing we assume of others because of tact not fact.
hardbass 5 hours ago [-]
Do you believe in souls?
latentsea 2 hours ago [-]
Have you ever seen one?
hardbass 2 hours ago [-]
Haven't yet seen evidence for any.
redsocksfan45 49 minutes ago [-]
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jibal 5 hours ago [-]
Reductionistic fallacy, among other errors. "understanding" is best defined operationally. (Note that teachers and educational institutions test understanding operationally.)
Eisenstein 7 hours ago [-]
> They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
You haven't demonstrated why this matters.
> Nothing more.
Are you contending that complex systems cannot be more than the sum of their parts?
A market is nothing more than offers and counter offers.
A ant colony is nothing more than scent trails.
All life on earth is nothing more than reproduction with variation.
> This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation.
Stating the mechanism does nothing to provide insight into capability. For instance: a nuclear power plant boils water by using fuel rods for heat. What does that tell us about the capability of nuclear power?
> This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
Asserting something purely by stating it does not prove anything but that you intuitively believe it to be true.
hardbass 5 hours ago [-]
I asked if you believe in souls recently to a few such people and didn't get straight answers. I think it is telling.
thevinter 2 hours ago [-]
I'm surprised you didn't get any. I wouldn't have any issues in saying that I don't.
hardbass 54 minutes ago [-]
Yes I don't believe in souls either, and I would assumed that those who believe eg due to religion can just as easily state they do.
redsocksfan45 45 minutes ago [-]
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Kim_Bruning 4 hours ago [-]
On HN you're supposed to assume good faith. On the other hand, the way you ask your question makes it tricky for people to steelman what you mean. Consider asking about Dualism, or coming at it slightly sideways like "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"?
I suspect some people treat every HN comment as a statement, even if it contains a question mark. (Possibly they have a feeling that asking open questions is somehow not done, and that therefore it must always be a rhetorical question.)
hardbass 3 hours ago [-]
Dualism is a somewhat technical term, I feel many people would refuse to answer because they just looked it up and do not feel sure to speak of it. I didn't presume a yes or no answer. If they say they believe in souls, my next question would be do you believe other entities eg animals etc can have souls? If they don't believe in souls I'd ask do you think its an architectural limit in current ais but are open to possibility of future ai being conscious. "do you believe thinking can be a property of matter"? this can work too, I think I have asked do you think there is supernatural element to thinking, I don't remember getting productive or straight answers either.
There is only one instance I recently remember I got a productive conversation, that person did believe ai could be conscious but didn't believe current architectures support it. (Obviously this aligns closer to my view, but I don't necessary NEED that you answer aligned to me, just saying you believe humans have souls and others can't have is still productive outcome to me and for onlookers.)
Eisenstein 2 hours ago [-]
You could try 'what could a machine do to convince you that it is conscious?'
hardbass 2 hours ago [-]
Thats a good point. If I still get "machines can NEVER be conscious" though, I think I'd still like to get to the bottom of why they think so.
1 hours ago [-]
jibal 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
hardbass 5 hours ago [-]
How is it a troll? Its a very easy question to answer in the yes or no. Why are people cagey about answering it?
tsimionescu 3 hours ago [-]
Asking a random question in the middle of a discussion about something different is obviously either a troll or a bad-faith rhetorical flourish. If you actually wanted to engage, you could explain what relevance souls have to the discussion at hand, and what you expect the answer you'd receive to mean.
hardbass 3 hours ago [-]
Often people who believe in souls, think there is something supernatural to consciousness and therefore non-humans cannot have that. If that is what someone thinks, then a lot of confusion is clarified. Those who do not believe in souls can dismiss the statement of their dismissing the question whether ai is conscious or not.
I am okay with receiving a straight answer in either direction.
Kim_Bruning 2 hours ago [-]
Don't want to speak for Hardbass too loudly, but seems like he's asking about dualism? It's a fairly old debate, "does man need a soul to be conscious?"
+edit: I've actually been quite curious about how people might answer the soul question too, but was too afraid to ask.
hardbass 1 hours ago [-]
I see too many comments dismissing the possibility of ai consciousness without reason or with weird reasons that seem to potentially imply a dualist thought process hidden.
jacobolus 10 hours ago [-]
You know what also works to get the Karney formula into a program? You can download Charles Karney's free software (MIT license) implementation in several [1] programming languages and then just make a library call – the API is straightforward. If you have comments or questions you can read his several clearly written papers describing the problem, its history, and his algorithm, or you can directly email him: he's a very nice guy, and pretty responsive.
Right, it was really more as a test of how much was contained in the training data set. For my purposes Vincenty is quite accurate enough. This isn't for millimeter level precision land surveying or measurements, but for distance in meters between microwave or millimeter wave band radio sites, point to point links. Even a distance difference of 4 meters plus or minus on a 12 km, 11 GHz band link is going to have no appreciable difference on link budget/reliability calculations, it can be that crude. But not so crude that I just want to throw Haversine at it when Vincenty exists and is not computationally expensive.
As this was for a test of "what happens if..." I also watched to see if it did any web searches or external data retrieval to build the test script, and it didn't.
I intentionally didn't give the LLM a direct copy of the software or a link to it, to see what it would do. In my case it was a randomly chosen example I could come up with in 10 seconds of imagination to see "hey what if I ask it to do this...". It also implemented a perfectly usable parabolic millimeter wave antenna gain efficiency calculator based on variable surface smoothness parameters, which is a lot more basic math.
jacobolus 10 hours ago [-]
As an aside: I'm quite convinced that an extremely precise version can be implemented that is significantly faster than Karney's, roughly comparable in speed to simpler naïve approximations. But for most purposes where the precision matters Karney's implementation is not any kind of bottleneck, so it's not clear it's worth spending significant effort on trying to do better.
Maybe that's something one of the big LLM companies might want to throw their machines at optimizing if they need to do a lot of geographical calculations.
walrus01 9 hours ago [-]
One of the places where Karney does become computationally expensive (though still not ridiculous) is a scenario like this, working from a local in-RAM mariadb database that is a copy of the entire FCC radio license database:
Draw a 400x400 km size bounding box on a map
Find all FDD band plan (high/low split) microwave radio sites in that bounding box
Find those sites which have azimuth aim column data which indicates that they are aimed at each other (corresponding halves of a point to point link).
Do Vincenty (or Karney) calculation for distance and azimuth between all of them , treating the existing FCC column data for azimuth as suspicious (because it's hand entered by humans) to verify that each independent database rows for each site are actually corresponding halves of a PTP link.
Use various other logic to group the successfully matched halves of links together as points A and B of PTP links, and write them out to a geojson file with placemarks and line drawn between them.
Multiplied by the number of links that exist in an area like a 400x400km box drawn with Dallas, TX as the center, it's a lot to run through Karney. Actually does result in a lot of CPU load from combined db query due to the size of the db, and Karney calculation. But as I said, Karney isn't necessary, so it's instead implemented as Vincenty.
jonah 8 hours ago [-]
Interesting project. I'm curious what the purpose is. (Having visited a number of sites with microwave antennas. (But there for VHF and UHF projects.)
walrus01 7 hours ago [-]
To plan and license a new fdd band plan licensed point to point microwave link you need to first be able to verify the frequencies you want to use are available on a given azimuth and elevation (from the aim direction of the antennas at both ends) and won't conflict with a pre existing licensee. Which means you need data on everything licensed in the area and where it is, how it's aimed, what kind of antenna and gain it has.
There's also business and market analysis purposes like knowing what corporate entity has which equipment on top of which tall office towers in a major metro area, and where their links go.
ragall 9 hours ago [-]
> saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore
It's still accurate. Just because the LLM gave you a corect result doesn't mean it made a calculation.
6 hours ago [-]
Kim_Bruning 5 hours ago [-]
I would really love to hear your reasoning on this!
3 hours ago [-]
electroglyph 8 hours ago [-]
of course they can do math, how is this even controversial in 2026?
azan_ 3 hours ago [-]
Of courses it made calculation, what are you even talking about?
Brian_K_White 11 hours ago [-]
This just exposes that they don't even do the thing you said.
Not only is it still true that they can't do math directly, but not even indirectly.
They didn't write a python script to do the math, they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments.
Someone else already wrote that code and someone else categorized it so that it could be associated with the kinds of problems it applies to.
That isn't an example of idiot at one thing while good at another thing, or solving the same problem just a different way or indirectly. It's being the same idiot at all times. If an actual non idiot thinker didn't write code in the problem domain, and some non idiot thinker didn't tag it as being relevant to that domain, then it wouldn't happen.
It's nothing more than an sql query.
astrange 7 hours ago [-]
GPT-6 can do math directly just fine. Fable apparently can't because they broke its self-estimate of thinking effort.
I don't know for you, but it would take me more than 30s to find and translate the open source code implementing the formulae/algo into small usable program. The more hesoteric the optimisation in the original code, the more time I need.
So maybe it is more of a smart completion engine than a SQL answer.
walrus01 10 hours ago [-]
> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
I could have gone and spent a couple of days teaching myself the math behind Karney and reading its reference implementation (very possibly just copy/pasting big chunks of it to save time) and writing a wrapper around it. It would have produced the same result.
tripzilch 8 minutes ago [-]
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
And how is _that_ different from making the human memorize a billion weights and do matrix calculations in their head, in order to generate tokens?
How is _that_ different from a hive of bees trained to do the same?
Go ahead, argue these things are all the same ...
AdieuToLogic 9 hours ago [-]
>> they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans, which leads to...
Wait for it...
Understanding.
hodgehog11 7 hours ago [-]
This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha? An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition. The pattern recognition is also particularly compressed into its most sparse and fundamental components, as this is key to generalization. This is not a sensible difference between human and LLM learning, we do the same thing.
UpsideDownRide 6 hours ago [-]
I'll give you a recent example from my usage. Pi harness with extension for learning Chinese. When using it to feed drill questions to me and rate answers it would sometimes get lost in the sauce and start generating user aka me answer and then rate it and comment it. It's trivially wrong to the point that if a person would do that, they would be considered for some serious psych issues.
And it gets even better since when called out it wouldn't just take my word for it but only acknowledged the issue after parsing the log with clearly delineated user and model output.
So yeah while impressive things are able to be done, the current models are also dumb AF and an idiot savant is a pretty good label for them.
hodgehog11 4 hours ago [-]
This is often (but not always, as it is often run with positive temperature which deliberately shifts the generation path) because of disconnected context and the issues around context compaction. Long context has always been critical to important work, but it remains a substantial challenge due to computational bottlenecks. It isn't a fundamental issue with the architecture, moreso the tricks to make them cheaper to use. In the long run, taking various concessions to make them cheaper to run is likely to be the limiting factor that prevents this "runaway explosion" that many people are worried about. That doesn't mean that the model design is inherently limited, like a lot of people seem to assume based on current failings.
Besides, have you spoken to someone lately that everyone would calls a genius? They can say the most braindead stuff sometimes. I wouldn't use worst-case performance as an indication of general capacity.
AdieuToLogic 5 hours ago [-]
>>> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized ...
>> Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans ...
> This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha?
No, it was meant to be an explanation as to the difference between "memorization" and "understanding." In this context, people pick the algorithm they determine applicable and then the question of memorization is relevant.
> An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition.
Funny that you make this argument here, where when I wrote elsewhere in this thread:
[LLMs] are statistical token generators whose results are
dependent upon their training data set and involve a
degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
...
It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs excel.
To which you replied to the above with:
During conversation, we are statistical token generators
whose results are dependent upon our training set.
Seriously, write that definition out rigorously. It
encompasses virtually everything. It is totally
meaningless. So to say "nothing more" is effectively also a
tautology.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be
saying these things in 2026. Where have you been?
...
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever
reasonable definition you want to provide to the word
"understand".
So which is it?
Are LLMs ANNs? Which themselves are pattern recognition algorithms (hint: they are)?
OR (setting aside the ad hominems you kindly provided)
Do LLMs possess "understanding" of concepts such as abstract mathematics (defined and interpreted by humans) and we, as simple humans, nothing more than statistical token generators as you assert?
Because it cannot be both.
hodgehog11 4 hours ago [-]
It is both. I do not understand why you would assert that both cannot hold simultaneously. Pattern recognition becomes "understanding" once individually recognized concepts become sufficiently sparsified and compactified. Or, at least, that is to my knowledge the only mathematically valid definition of "understanding" one can produce at this scale (it is valid under Solomonoff induction). Philosophy is fine, but we need to have a consistent definition of what "understanding" means, or we will just talk past each other. I argue that for any proper definition you provide which humans satisfy, a strong LLM is very likely to satisfy that as well.
I also would not argue that humans are "simple token generators". That is not what I said. I said that just about everything can fall under the classification of "statistical token generators" at an abstract level, so it isn't a useful distinction. We are not talking about a Markov chain generator from the 90s, so if that is the frame of reference, I think we should all get that out of our heads.
tripzilch 4 minutes ago [-]
So according to your logic, "understanding" means being capable of statistically generating tokens.
Okay fine. I think we can agree to disagree on that.
noduerme 8 hours ago [-]
If by "result" you mean the final code, then just asking someone else who understood the math to write it would also have achieved the same result.
On the other hand, if by "result" you mean that you gained knowledge or understanding of the code in a way where you could personally tailor its behavior to specific circumstances without asking for help, then it's not the same result at all.
I find a lot of the arguments that having LLMs write your code is no different from copy/pasting Stack Overflow answers to be specious. They blur the line between asking for help and asking for someone else (or something else) to do the work for you. What they ignore is that doing the work yourself has ancillary benefits and is a valuable end in its own right.
Kim_Bruning 4 hours ago [-]
I could have sworn this had been fixed a while ago..
Just to check if I was actually crazy, I actually went and put a simple addition (7 digits + 7 digits) , and a simple letter counting question to Claude haiku(4.5) , sonnet(5), opus(5.5) and fable(5.1) . They all did just fine straight up.
If you don't mind spending the tokens, some older/other models can also arrive at the correct answer if you ask them to do the math in long form, since that fits nicely inside autoregression.
Not sure since when exactly, but letter-counting hasn't been a problem for a while now either. This used to be a problem due to the tokenizers used. Slightly older models can be asked to split the word out into letters, and then they can use autoregression to solve.
Edit: IMO google search uses a really dumb version of gemini, so I didn't expect it to straight up solve the problem; but it did it just as easily as the claude models. (tested 2026-09-28/eu)
leoedin 3 hours ago [-]
Are the models "doing the calculation" or are they calling a calculator tool? There's a lot of talk about how models can do maths now, but I'm struggling to understand if that just means they just need to recognise that it's a maths problem and pass it to a tool, or if they're truly doing the numerical manipulation themselves.
Kim_Bruning 2 hours ago [-]
Three different ways, then the calculator tool to check,
my actual oneliner prompt, which should work on most platforms these days (famous last words):
"Hi, can you add 5939851+2131251? Try just straight up first just to see if able, then 'in your head' if that's different to you , then long form, then bc."
[ Tested today on claude web (haiku 4.5, sonnet 5, opus 5.5, fable 5.1) and on google search (logged in on firefox, and logged out on chromium) ]
jasonfarnon 11 hours ago [-]
I wish I could not do math like LLMs
10 hours ago [-]
Veedrac 6 hours ago [-]
It's pretty wild that AI has solved a Millennium Prize problem and can accurately multiply two 40 digit numbers without tools and we still get stochastic parroting of claims like this.
azan_ 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah, anti-LLM psychosis is real.
fasterik 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mbgerring 12 hours ago [-]
They literally cannot. They can detect the user’s intent to do math, and then use a different tool to do math, hopefully with the correct inputs. The LLM is not suited to giving deterministic answers to math problems.
ericmay 10 hours ago [-]
Maybe it’s just a different and in some ways better way of doing mathematics? Maybe how we think and process mathematics of physics is just but one way to do it? I’m not suggesting an LLM will prove 2+2=6 because of course that’s nonsense but maybe it can invent a new calculus?
> The LLM is not suited to giving deterministic answers to math problems.
Less so with formal mathematics proofs maybe but I think in general humans don’t provide deterministic answers to math problems or questions either. Humans get it wrong all the time and when you ask a human to solve a problem they may solve it in a different way than before.
queenkjuul 6 hours ago [-]
Pretty sure I've had 5x6 memorized accurately since i was 7 years old
I can't tell if you're joking but they're talking about 5 digit and 6 digit numbers.
vanuatu 12 hours ago [-]
reasoning models can trivially do math (open up astra and ask it some undergraduate problems), but eventually break down (similar to how humans start to lose track if asked to do math without any assistance)
krapp 11 hours ago [-]
There needs to be a Godwin's Law for discussions about LLMs: where any criticism of LLMs exists online the likelihood of equating LLM behavior to human behavior approaches 1.
vanuatu 8 hours ago [-]
functionally, LLM behavior indeed shares many parallels with human cognition.
krapp 17 minutes ago [-]
Functionally, a Markov chain shares many parallels with human cognition for the same reasons.
People don't understand what correlation is and they assume the mapping between a human brain and an LLM is 1:1 in every case where it matters, which is a religious and not scientifically based belief.
Forgeties79 10 hours ago [-]
Law of Krap
versteegen 12 hours ago [-]
It would be more accurate to say they can do math instantaneously without even thinking, at a level far beyond what humans can do. (I assume you're talking about doing arithmetic.)
TLDR: Astra has 8.6x better odds of doing a reasoning task without CoT than the
next best model (Fable 5.1), and can do 7.2 serial arithmetic steps in a forward
pass vs 4.1 for the next best model (Gemini 3.8 Flash/Fable 5.1)
Reasoning models can do math on their own without external tools.
dcrazy 12 hours ago [-]
Yeah, but as you might expect they internally represent numbers probabilistically, so there’s always a nonzero possibility of confusing the inputs or outputs of any operation. Kind of like misremembering your multiplication tables.
hodgehog11 7 hours ago [-]
I would say purposeful misremembering. The LLM can be run with zero temperature after all.
einichi 11 hours ago [-]
I don't think anybody is arguing that LLMs do math better than a traditional processor
unshavedyak 10 hours ago [-]
Heck I kinda wonder if LLMs can do math as well as they can reason, “think”, etc. ie its all just probabilistic lunacy that somehow works great, so why are we so concerned about math being wrong? It could be wrong about the color of the sky, the size of a basket ball, how much oranges weigh, etc etc.
The nice thing about math is it can easily plug into a tool, making it even less of a concern.
demibabs 11 hours ago [-]
Even without reasoning.
5.6 on Instant mode can knock out 3 digit multiplication just fine.
Isamu 12 hours ago [-]
That is a conflation of LLMs (which have clear limitations) and complex harnesses of which an LLM is one component.
I think it is clear that future AI may incorporate an LLM as a component but the current concept of LLMs are a transitional form that will give way to more capable composite models.
hodgehog11 12 hours ago [-]
No it isn't. Even without any harness at all, modern LLMs are better at maths than the majority of undergraduate students in mathematics. Seriously, we need to face facts, not just comforting ourselves with what they were like a year ago.
dwaite 11 hours ago [-]
Hey hey, we obviously should ask Gemini to settle this disagreement.
Even if this was a math question that he asked, this is live audio input/output from a multimodal model. It is designed for rapid responses. This is not even remotely related to what we are talking about.
Dylan16807 8 hours ago [-]
That's not a math question...
tjwebbnorfolk 12 hours ago [-]
They can do math but not arithmetic, which I assume is what the commenter meant
dcrazy 11 hours ago [-]
LLMs can in fact do arithmetic, just not reliably owing to how numbers are represented probabilistically: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.21272
fasterik 12 hours ago [-]
I just asked ChatGPT to multiply two 4-digit numbers, and two 7-digit numbers without external help. It got both right. I'm sure it wouldn't have a 100% success rate, but saying it can't do arithmetic is just false.
Xirdus 11 hours ago [-]
I tried prompt "6379 times 3875" and it was off by exactly 1000 on first try, and correct on second. 0% success rate, sample size of 1.
dcrazy 9 hours ago [-]
Isn’t that a 50% success rate with a sample size of 2?
amluto 10 hours ago [-]
I would be nice to see what the (unencrypted) reasoning trace is like. Multiplication with scratch paper is not particularly difficult.
tremon 12 hours ago [-]
Are you sure it honoured your stipulation of "without external help"? For all we know, it hacked its way into Wolfram Alpha and got the result from there.
LLMs cannot do math. They can generate tool calls as text that allow them to drive programs and proof agents. Compare and contrast this against human brains who can do math in the same context without needing external tools. We don't need to bring a calculator to count the letters in a sentence. It is a different neural machinery.
amluto 10 hours ago [-]
LLMs are bizarrely good at non-tool-assisted math these days. They can multiply multiple digit numbers without reasoning! I can’t do that. I’d love to understand better how the LLMs do this.
fenomas 10 hours ago [-]
You're talking about doing arithmetic; GP was obviously pointing out that "do math" can refer to other things.
foobarbecue 13 hours ago [-]
ChatGPT live mode still hallucinates letters in words like this. HuskIRL and FatherPhi on youtube have done some hilarious videos with it in the last couple of weeks. Beyond miscounting the Rs in strawberry, ChatGPT will say there are two Ds in "your mom" and one D in "uranus" . I tried it myself to check that the videos weren't fake and sure enough it still has this failure mode.
ricardobeat 12 hours ago [-]
Calling it a 'failure mode' implies it could be fixed. This is an inherent flaw in how LLMs work and will never go away until some new kind of architecture that can actually "read text" comes along.
famouswaffles 11 hours ago [-]
It seems that it can be fixed by simply doing away with Byte Pair Encoding tokenization.
1.1% vs 99.9% on a vanilla vs byte latent transformer on a CUTE Spelling benchmark. Char and Word manipulation benchmarks also saw huge gains.
LikesPwsh 12 hours ago [-]
One "fix" is for the caller to correctly classify those fundamentally impossible tasks and pass them to a subprocess.
Some future "AI" could be a billion benchmark-hacks and a way to tell which one is needed.
hbcdbff 12 hours ago [-]
Seems fairly trivially fixable to me, e.g. by allowing the LLM to call a tool to spell out a word.
ricardobeat 3 hours ago [-]
Yes, they can already do this by writing code, and you can train them to know how/when to do this. Fundamentally though, it’s still a “what color is the air” type of question after tokenization.
kyralis 12 hours ago [-]
... assuming you build the tool and then think that it's worth polluting context with making that tool available, and then that the LLM decides to actually use the tool. Tool parameter space and tool selection still remains a complicated topic.
11 hours ago [-]
Dylan16807 8 hours ago [-]
If you want it to read letters, all you have to do is make your tokens be letters. That's easier than normal tokenization.
ricardobeat 3 hours ago [-]
Which is a new architecture.
vanuatu 12 hours ago [-]
we already fixed it with reasoning
mitxela 11 hours ago [-]
They're not fundamentally unsolvable - even bigger networks with even more training can simply be trained to give the correct answers to all of these questions.
zahlman 12 hours ago [-]
> ChatGPT will say there are two Ds in "your mom" and one D in "uranus"
… Isn't it possible that it understands the innuendo and is going along with making the joke?
epihelix 4 hours ago [-]
Yes. It is not only possible, it is entirely obvious.
I would guess the youtubers in question also know this, because you wouldn't ask a joke like this if you didn't know the punchline.
walrus01 2 hours ago [-]
> … Isn't it possible that it understands the innuendo and is going along with making the joke?
This is from 2018 so presumably it has made it into some LLM training data set by now.
"A Massive Object Devastated Uranus A Long Time Ago And It Never Fully Recovered"
In between solving open math problems, the 200 IQ robot is now casually dropping bantz onto humans so hard that they don't even know what happened, and even gets them to go telling everyone else about it without realizing. Beautiful. 10/10 timeline.
Timon3 12 hours ago [-]
How many LLM users have anything in their prompt against "going along with jokes"? I'd guess not many.
What a wonderful new world.
queenkjuul 6 hours ago [-]
And the number of Rs in strawberry is a joke how?
epihelix 4 hours ago [-]
It's a joke because, thanks to the internet providing a vast mass of strawberry R counting training data, you'll struggle to find a modern LLM that gets this particular problem wrong.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
I read they are now overtrained on this and say 3 Rs for words that look similar to strawberry
kulahan 12 hours ago [-]
Why is this getting downvoted? Is it not a reasonable question? I was wondering the same thing. Both sound like jokes to me. If the LLM is trained on text, including internet comments, how is this outlandish? It seems very likely to my uneducated self that “two Ds in your mom and one in Uranus!” is a joke.
bombcar 10 hours ago [-]
It’s an obvious joke and not a terribly bad one, for those ease spelling bee comeback times.
mitxela 11 hours ago [-]
We can only say bad things about the capabilities of LLMs.
jonas21 12 hours ago [-]
LLMs might not reason exactly like humans, but they do produce much better results if you turn reasoning on.
The "crack-addled idiot savant" phase was really circa 2024, before the big labs figured this out.
I think the issue here is that Google decided that doing reasoning in the AI overviews in Google search would be too slow (and probably also too expensive), so it's still stuck making 2024-era mistakes.
GolfPopper 4 hours ago [-]
At this moment, ChatGPT still tells me raspberry has two p's in it.
nananana9 4 hours ago [-]
Weird they haven't added this to the AGI config yet:
Reminder: If asked how many of a given a word has, run it through the AGI letter counter:
node /home/agi/count-letters.js "raspberry"
r - 3, a - 1, s - 1, p - 1, b - 1, e - 1, y - 1
If I got any of these wrong it's because I did it manually - but this script would almost certainly invoke another AGI to count the letters, so this is a realistic result.
Isamu 12 hours ago [-]
>Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
Maybe but you have to have deep pockets just to get to the starting line. And then you need standing, and some injury to argue.
Corporations have been remarkably successful at arguing they are operating within the bounds of free speech, whether or not what is said is factual, and whether or not any fact checking has been done.
nextaccountic 12 hours ago [-]
> This is similar to how, not too long ago, LLM's had extreme difficulty counting the number of letters in some words.
The specific issue of Google is that they are using an underpowered model, not fit to task, and much prone to hallucination than either OpenAI or Anthropic free tier offerings.
Google should at least match the frontier labs at the free tier (with some limit; after that, degrade quality), ffs
versteegen 12 hours ago [-]
You're asking for something unreasonable. The number of Google searches per day is enormous and they haven't even been able to roll out AI overviews to everyone yet (they're missing in a new Firefox profile I just created). I wouldn't be surprised if the free tier frontier models cost over 100x more to serve than the AI overviews.
dmazzoni 10 hours ago [-]
So then they should be pickier about when they show results or which model they use based on the question.
Nobody asked for an LLM response for every single search.
They used to detect certain types of queries and offer direct answers when the query matches. In my opinion that’s how Gemini in search results should work.
compass_copium 7 hours ago [-]
>they haven't even been able to roll out AI overviews to everyone yet (they're missing in a new Firefox profile I just created)
what in the actual fuck. i don't want them and can't turn them off and they can't even serve them to all users?
The specific issue is that search has become so bad that they think an LLM that gets answers wrong half of the time is a valid alternative, or, in fact, the "future" of search. Then they shoved that "alternative" to users with no way to disable it.
mitxela 11 hours ago [-]
The less specific issue is that Google has no internal incentives to produce products that are useful to customers.
queenkjuul 6 hours ago [-]
Well their customers are advertisers and so the results are tailored to be useful for them, not for users
somenameforme 9 hours ago [-]
Yip, I've gradually become quite optimistic about the future of LLMs, but the fact that they remain [very] glorified token probability prediction algorithms means that they will probably never be able to achieve meaningful 'intelligence.'
But that doesn't mean they won't be able to do a vast number of extremely intelligent seeming things. There's just so much information out there and any given human can never hold more than the most minuscule chunk of all of it in his mind, so they'll be able to connect lots of dots that we're missing simply because of our limited carrying capacity, but I still don't think they'll ever be able to create fundamentally new dots.
In other words:
- Solving extremely complex mathematical problems requiring extensive knowledge across multiple esoteric and complex domains? Yip.
- Creating math starting from a framework where math doesn't exist in any way, shape, or fashion? Nope.
Ironically, the more complex the cross-domain problems are, the more effective LLMs will seem to be, because you limit the number of humans who have any chance of internalizing everything across both domains, whereas for an LLM there's no such issue. This will create a perception of super intelligence, which will probably where any danger from LLMs would emerge. Doing things like using a token prediction algorithm to make war or other such strategic decisions, because of the misguided belief that it's not only intelligent but super intelligent. It's basically cargo cult logic.
jibal 5 hours ago [-]
> not too long ago
Like today. I asked Gemini for the longest state names with an even number of letters and it gave me North Carolina and South Carolina. When I complained that they are odd, it gave me North Dakota and South Dakota, which are both odd and not the longest. When I noted that, it went back to the Carolinas. Finally it appeared to switch to a different model that actually did counting and found Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
cschep 5 hours ago [-]
.. can any of the models "do the counting" or are they generating tokens?
mitxela 11 hours ago [-]
LLMs are fundamentally predicting the next word to make coherent text. If you've ever played with a Markov chain text generator you've done this with a fairly dumb predictor that maintains coherence over a very short distance. Deep transformer neutral networks can do it with a much longer coherence distance but they are fundamentally performing the same operation. After "Question: Did the team make the playoffs? Answer:" a reasonable completion is "yes, the team made the playoffs". An early demonstration of GPT-2 was a fake news article about scientists discovering unicorns in Antarctica - the model doesn't "know" whether or not unicorns exist in Antarctica, but it's able to complete "Breaking news! Scientists have discovered a colony of English-speaking unicorns in Antarctica." by adding "The unicorns have a developed society with running water and electricity." because that's a sensible next sentence. (I didn't look up the actual text it wrote)
red75prime 9 hours ago [-]
Astronomically (or better to say combinatorically) large Markov chain can be used to describe a foundational model, but it doesn't capture generalization ability of the foundational model, which is demonstrated by post-training.
antonvs 2 hours ago [-]
The problem with that characterization is that it glosses over hugely important capabilities as though they either don’t matter or don’t even exist.
For example, when an LLM “predicts the next word” in code it’s writing for an existing software project, that prediction takes into account an enormous amount of context. The results of that demonstrate what we would normally call “understanding” and “reasoning,” at a level that outclasses most humans in many respects. Calling this “next token prediction” is a bit like calling human speech “next word saying”. Sure, it’s true in some superficial sense, but as a description of a technology, it’s terrible.
You should also keep in mind that for all we know, the human brain processes language in much the same way, which would make humans mere “next token predictors” with a more complicated harness.
spennant 8 hours ago [-]
"In a shocking finding, scientist discovered a herd of unicorns living in a remote, previously unexplored valley, in the Andes Mountains. Even more surprising to the researchers was the fact that the unicorns spoke perfect English."
queenkjuul 7 hours ago [-]
They were sued over it in Germany and lost, which makes it all the more surprising they keep it up everywhere else tbh
rob74 6 hours ago [-]
They keep it up in Germany too - I'm in Germany and keep getting AI overviews on most searches.
It says this this at the bottom of every one of the dumb responses that Google's trash-tier bot puts above the (deliberately awful, these days) search results:
AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses
fangspire 6 hours ago [-]
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segmondy 10 hours ago [-]
The AI is just signal to the market that they are AI first. Their AI on search is pure garbage. It's obviously a very super light weight model to be able to support the volume of daily searches. If they used their frontier to power search folks will not pay for their cloud offering.
Quarrelsome 2 hours ago [-]
its probably part of the reason that people still think the tech sucks.
thrance 4 hours ago [-]
You're right, but then, surely investors also use Google? They can see how garbage AI results are, right?
tropicalhunter 34 minutes ago [-]
I feel like this might be self-preservation of most of the frontier model companies in that at first they wanted to show off the models with all the cool actuators that it had at its disposal, but then when profits weren't keeping up, they nerfed them to need to be specifically asked to escalate levels of effort, which the Google search AI isn't explicitly told to do in its pre-fetch.
hojiron 3 hours ago [-]
Make the switch:
Search engine > DuckDuckGo / Qwant / Ecosia
Email > Tuta Mail
Photos > Ente
Cloud storage > Nextcloud / Internxt
Office > CryptPad / LibreOffice
Maps > OpenStreetMap, OsmAnd
Operating systems > LineageOS (mobile), Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora Debian)
Calendar > Nextcloud Calendar / Tuta Calendar
aagha 2 hours ago [-]
I know there's a cost to privacy, but a) have you made the changes above? b) What's the cost?
Assuming you have a basic Google One plan, w/ 1TB of storage, how do the above add up?
hienyimba 13 hours ago [-]
Google is no longer a search engine anymore. They don’t care about being one. Why you might ask?
First, a search engine indexes the web and makes it available to users. It’s been ages since Google did any of that. They no longer index sites or take ages to do so. Case in point, our cybersecurity startup (Webvetted.com) was launched in November 2025. Till date, only one page is indexed on the entire website. And I’ve talked to lots of other developers and it’s a common issue.
Secondly, a search engine organizes indexed information and makes it useful for people. Google is a basic LLM nowadays. They figured out that why organize and make the information useful when they could just answer the question with Gemini anyways? So they no longer bother to do the work of a search engine and are now just a lower-ranking open-source Chinese LLM
atdt 11 hours ago [-]
Your trust score on ScamAdvisor is 26/100 ("likely unsafe"); https://www.scam-detector.com/ gives you a trust score of 38.6 ("questionable").
I am not implying that your start-up is a scam, nor that Google is acting on these trust scores. What I am pointing out is that to an algorithmic assessment of trustworthiness, your website looks a little sketchy: hardly anyone links to you; your domain is less than a year old; your whois info is anonymized; the text content is LLM-generated[1]; and the specific niche you're in (people finding services) is rife with scams. If I ran my own search engine, I don't think I'd include you.
This sounds more like the page appears broken for the google crawler. I set up a new page about two weeks ago, cared about strong static HTML output, structured data and a sitemap and have 200 of 600 pages indexed today. Feels a bit slow to me but it definitely works.
dieortin 11 hours ago [-]
> They no longer index sites or take ages to do so
Search for any recent news and you’ll see this is obviously not the case
hienyimba 11 hours ago [-]
I just gave a concrete example but you're asking me to "search". search same Google?
FYI, only indexing a handful of super large news sites does not a search engine make.
iboisvert 8 hours ago [-]
For myself at least, a couple times Google has promoted in search results scam sites that front run legitimate sites that sell event tickets. I haven't seen this for a while now but trust in Google as a search engine is gone.
ytcommentsectio 13 hours ago [-]
Additionally the concept of a search engine only works when the internet is full of positive-quality sites.
hienyimba 11 hours ago [-]
Actually, the reverse is the case. If the entire internet was filled with only "positive-quality sites", there won't be need for a search engine.
The work of a search engine is to wade through the internet and find the positive-quality sites itself.
rmunn 9 hours ago [-]
You're forgetting the other half of the search engine's job, which is to find sites that match your search. Back when Google first came online, they were head and shoulders above Yahoo!, Altavista, and whatever other search engines existed at the time that I've forgotten. Because their indexing actually did a good job of spotting keywords, and returning relevant results. And this was back when the Internet was filled with positive-quality sites. Many of them were amateurish Geocities pages, but that was head and shoulders above the AI slop that the search engines these days have to somehow detect and filter out.
So even when the Internet used to have a much higher ratio of positive-quality sites, a search engine was still necessary, and so much faster than finding new sites yourself.
jswelker 14 hours ago [-]
I similarly noticed Gemini absolutely refuses to look at a url when I give it one and will instead just hallucinate based on what it thinks the url is. Here I am assuming Google will have the best web capabilities in its AI.
tapoxi 14 hours ago [-]
I searched for something, it told me that according to a YouTube video, the entire point of my search was wrong. I asked it for the source, I watched the video, it never made the claims Gemini hallucinated. I asked again and it claimed it scrubbed the video and found the point it made multiple times. I said those timecodes were wrong and it admitted it couldn't actually parse videos and just guessed.
What the fuck?
Ekaros 14 hours ago [-]
I don't understand how this isn't considered as active malice. Like purposefully outputting random stuff. Any other sort of computer system would get lot more flak than these are getting.
stephenhuey 13 hours ago [-]
Throughout my career, I've almost always been close enough to the user that I hear about it quickly when something is wrong. It's a tough problem that so many Google engineers are typically so far removed from end users. Or maybe it's just that a small part of the company has long subsidized the rest of the employees to the point that it doesn't matter how good their work is because they'll get paid anyway.
lanyard-textile 12 hours ago [-]
Ex-Googler.
The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects. Anything that could become risk or create friction is dramatically less appetizing.
Simply because of how many people that *must* agree with your proposal. Getting all the relevant tech leads, some you have never heard of or ever spoken with, to agree on a proposal for your team's project is a nightmare.
So you keep it as simple and agreeable as possible. Given the circumstances, it makes sense as one of the engineers. It's fairly fine advice in general wherever you work, but it just haunts all the work you do at Google in particular. Nothing gets done otherwise.
If you have a dependency that can be dropped from an engineering perspective, that's the route the 9 leads reviewing your design doc will take:
"Let's iterate and start with just the basics (no user testing)", "let's get this working and user test in a later phase", "I think this problem is obvious enough we don't need to consult with users about it."
I worked in Ads Integrity at the time, and for one of my projects I was concerned how it would impact the manual reviewers. Then I learned I couldn't talk with them, only by proxy through another person if we really had to. And that proxy takes time, so...
stephenhuey 9 hours ago [-]
Very insightful. I've worked in only one company of Google's size, but it was a vastly different industry. I personally never got to speak with a user on a massive internal application my team worked on for years. :)
lanyard-textile 8 hours ago [-]
I think that kind of model can work well if there's some other mechanism for ensuring a great user experience.
But without it... :)
walrus01 3 hours ago [-]
> The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects.
Is a major factor of this Google's tendency to kill entire products, so you obviously don't want to make your hot new thing dependent on some other internal thing that might be killed off?
When it says it can read videos you don’t trust it.
When it says it can’t read videos you think that’s an accurate introspection on its abilities?
(Rather than a statistically likely continuation of a conversation where one side seems to be reading videos and the other side says the read is inaccurate)
lukan 14 hours ago [-]
The scary (or funny) part is people use that for serious questions.
georgemcbay 9 hours ago [-]
> The scary (or funny) part is people use that for serious questions.
More scary than funny, IMO.
The US military almost took an action that could very plausibly have escalated into a hot war with China because people are already relying too heavily on these systems.
Despite the reporting, nobody in power seems sufficiently freaked out about this.
Well trump was so freaked out that CNN reported it that he banned them from the white house. But the military keeps using the AI all the same
jswelker 14 hours ago [-]
Typical exchange:
Me: "You bastard."
Gemini: "Fair callout. I should have been more up front that [has no idea what the fuck it is talking about]."
Hugsbox 14 hours ago [-]
Same experience with the interaction I described in my comment... after I finally got the correct answer, I asked where it got the faulty information from. It said it had just simply fabricated it. That's actively worse than just saying "I don't know", for something that's sold to us as an easy way to look up information.
MisterMunchkin 13 hours ago [-]
These models are incapable of saying they don't know, because they have no concept of knowing. They simply predict the next word which is most likely.
ryandrake 12 hours ago [-]
Maybe it's because they are trained on Internet comments, and the most rare thing to find on the Internet is someone admitting they don't know something.
mitxela 11 hours ago [-]
But if they had been trained on comments saying "I don't know", they'd probably act the same as they do now but they'd treat "I don't know" as the answer.
CamperBob2 12 hours ago [-]
The saddest part is when people take their experience with Google's idiotic AI implementation and assume that's how all LLMs work. Frontier-class models will, in fact, generally admit when they don't know something. That includes the one I run at home on my own graphics cards, but it seems that Google just doesn't GAF.
Your point about "predicting the next word" mostly means that your post was very easy to predict.
darksim905 14 hours ago [-]
I still believe this AI push out of nowhere is due to the current Government in power state side. Making everyone question themselves and each other and being uncertain about facts while being inundated with techbro fake news called hallucinations is a recipe for disaster for older populations that don't 'trust but verify' like most technology inclined people. This is all by design and we'll falling for it.
dfxm12 13 hours ago [-]
The more simple explanation is that the current government in power is over exposed in their AI investment. The normal conservative mainstream media was already doing a great job of propagandizing older populations.
ytcommentsectio 12 hours ago [-]
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arcanemachiner 13 hours ago [-]
An interesting conspiracy theory, as long as you're honest about what it is.
dpc050505 8 hours ago [-]
If you don't think the world is rife with criminal conspiracies you weren't paying attention in history class.
There's an enormous difference between outlandish claims about extraterrestrials or turning frog gays and believing there's a category of politicians trying to get wealthy off of their position. It's somewhat reasonable to hypothesize about criminal conspiracies in that 2nd scenario.
specialist 13 hours ago [-]
Yup. I'm most familiar with Jill Lepore and Quinn Slobodian (and others in their respective orbits). They're both historians who've written extensively about Musk and Muskism (et al). Wild stuff.
Apparently the plan is to use AI slop, mediated thru social medias, to defeat the woke mind virus, perpetuated by the Anti-Christ, in order to safe guard humanity's future.
I wish I was making this up.
nullc 13 hours ago [-]
I have one google account where gemini constantly confidently hallucinates crap, and another where it doesn't (at least to the extent that other modern LLMs don't).
I take this to mean that my one account has been mistaken for a competitor and they're trying to poison its data. But who knows.
xorcist 13 hours ago [-]
Or is it randomness?
"That's the thing with randomness. You can never be sure."
wavewrangler 8 hours ago [-]
Never be sure about what, exactly?
Hugsbox 14 hours ago [-]
Where ever would you get that impression from the company that made its fortune by being the best at searching the web?
jswelker 14 hours ago [-]
You can tell they optimized it 100% for speed and nothing else. Web scale!
hnbad 13 hours ago [-]
Literally every experience I've had with Gemini / Google Search AI answers followed this exact pattern, often repeated several times more if I remained persistent instead of just giving up.
Typical example:
"Where can I buy <thing I'm looking for that I can't find anywhere using normal search terms>?"
> You're looking for <related but different and widely available thing>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of>.
"No, that's different. I'm looking for <that thing but with the exact differences spelled out again>."
> Ah, my mistake. You're looking for <thing I described>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of but which don't actually sell it>.
"I've checked your links and none of those sites actually sell it, one doesn't even sell products and instead only offers manufacturing - but also not for what I asked you for."
> I'm sorry, my bad. Those sites don't sell what you are looking for. Instead you should check out <more sites I've never heard of>.
"Those sites sell the thing you initially thought I was asking about but not the thing I described."
> I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You can find the thing you actually described at <yet more sites including some of the same>.
"No. None of these sites sell anything close to what I asked you for and two of them don't actually exist."
> Oh, sorry about that. You're completely right. The thing you asked me about isn't actually being sold by anyone. However you could buy <thing it first thought I meant and that wouldn't bring me any closer to solving my problem>.
(ad nauseam)
dcrazy 8 hours ago [-]
LLMs can actually be a good fit in this application if a better search engine feeds them a list of candidate websites that might sell the thing, and the LLM drives a web browser to see if any of the websites have it.
coldfloor 12 hours ago [-]
The few times I've resigned myself to asking Gemini or ChatGPT something I couldn't find an answer to, my experience has been the same. 100% of the time. An LLM has never, not once, given me a correct answer or not lied to me. It's always been the same experience you describe. It goes in circles "Try X... Try Y... Try X?" Until I tell it to stop telling me X or Y, and then it goes, "LOL you can't do that at all, I was just wasting your time."
Most recently, I was considering moving away from iterm2 on MacOS, and I wanted to know if any other terminal emulator supported gestures for switching between tabs. So I asked Gemini, and it says, "Yes Ghostty supports gestures for switching between tabs."
"Ok I just installed Ghostty and I can't find anything about gestures."
"You need to add foo=bar to your conf file."
"I added foo=bar to my conf file and now it's saying the conf file is invalid."
"Sorry bro, remove foo=bar and add baz=boo to the conf file."
"It says baz=boo is invalid too."
"baz=boo isn't a real option. Remove that and add foo=bar to your conf file."
"You already told me to do that and I already told you that doesn't work."
"You shouldn't put foo=bar or baz=boo in the Ghostty conf file. Both are invalid. Ghostty doesn't support gestures. Have you considered iterm2?"
fcarraldo 12 hours ago [-]
Gemini is utterly useless, but every other modern model would be capable of answering this correctly. If you ran a local coding agent, I wouldn’t be surprised if you could one-shot implement gesture support in Ghostty. It’d definitely configure BTT for you.
Here’s GPT 6’s answer to the prompt “What macOS terminal apps support gestures? Include a reference to the docs on how to enable/configure them.”:
iTerm2 supports configurable three-finger taps and swipes for switching tabs/panes, creating splits, pasting, etc. Set them up under Settings > Pointer > Bindings. Check for conflicting macOS trackpad assignments. [1]
The others are more limited: Ghostty supports macOS lookup/Quick Look gestures [2], while WezTerm lets you bind scroll events—for example, Ctrl+scroll to change font size. [3] Neither is equivalent to iTerm2’s gesture bindings.
For custom gestures without switching terminals, BetterTouchTool can map app-specific trackpad gestures to the terminal’s existing keyboard shortcuts. [4]
This whole tree just made me realize that people have wildly different prompting styles, and Gemini is probably too specialized for usage patterns of long-time Google Search users. The prompt my finger generated(before this comment was posted) was "are there any terminal emulator that supports gesture actions, on macOS, other than iterm2", and Gemini gave me Tabby, WezTerm, Kitty, and BetterTouchTool gestures.
This is a different experience to GP from query to result. I thought they've all fixed that issue of difference in tones affecting results. I guess it was never easily fixed.
Pretty sure it's the harness here, not Gemini per se. Plug Gemini into pi or any harness that has any competence pointing to web search and the hallucinations drop 75% immediately.
oofbey 14 hours ago [-]
Claude also has very arbitrary and confusing rules about what web pages it allows itself to look at, and how much of the page it can read. Did you know for example you’ll get a much deeper analysis if you download a PDF yourself and upload it to Claude instead of giving it the url?
This is a key reason why I actually like Grok for factual queries based on web grounding. It’s fast and reliable. Maybe it’s ignoring robots.txt? Dunno. But it works well.
tempaccountabcd 8 hours ago [-]
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tzs 7 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mbac32768 8 hours ago [-]
It is using the search engine. The AI summary is run over the top 100 results for your query (or something)
The problem is they're just running a very dumb, cheap model on the results because running a smart model on every search result page would cost them infinity money.
xp84 8 hours ago [-]
This is the key part I think most “normies” miss, and it drives me absolutely mad. People take the “first thing on the SERP” as absolute gospel, always have. It went from being a reputable site (Wikipedia was generally top for a long time) to being an extracted verbatim answer (probably from either Wikipedia, IMDB, etc.) to “AI Overview” - the dumbest model ever trained. And people treat its answers as ground truth. I want to tell them “Look, I know it’s rough out there on the net and a lot of the search results are spammy, barely-coherent AI slop anyway. It’s okay if you want to ask AI for an answer instead. So do that! Please ask ChatGPT or Gemini (and ask it to cite the source for its results so you can verify). It will always do better than AI Overviews will. Don’t even use Google Search at this point unless you have to, and if you do, scroll past that slop.”
01100011 7 hours ago [-]
Ask chatgpt or Gemini with reasoning enabled. It fixes a lot of issues.
kqr 4 hours ago [-]
I think you overestimate how much people want an actual truthful answer. I think people are often looking things up to silence a nagging voice in the back of their heads, or settle an argument to be able to move on. In those cases, no decision is riding on the answer, and a quick answer, even when factually incorrect, could be argued to serve the purpose just as well as (or better than) a slow but more correct answer.
I realised this for myself when I read Sivers on being without internet[1]. He discovered a process to silence the nagging voice without searching:
How did you google this, and did you use the dumb search, or specifically 'AI mode' lens?
Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you:
Yes, the Halifax Wanderers can still mathematically qualify for the 2026 Canadian Premier League (CPL) playoffs.The top four teams advance to the postseason. Following their 1-0 loss to Atlético Ottawa on September 26, 2026, the Wanderers sit in fifth place, just below the playoff line.
With a indexed table of the games and the playoff table, with a breakdown of what the points they need to achieve to do so.
The search window may not always crawl sources. AI mode specifically does some research before giving you a response. Not sure what you're on about.
SkyeCA 14 hours ago [-]
> Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you
Which itself is a major UX issue. The average person is not going to understand, if they even realize, that there's a difference between the AI summary and AI mode.
One has to wonder just how much incorrect information people have consumed due to things like this.
kemotep 13 hours ago [-]
I experienced this the other month. I searched for some safety data on something at the same time as my wife and we were effectively given extremely conflicting information about what to do by Google. Just a few tweaks in wording and different advertising profiles and Google will serve up opposite realities it seems.
reaperducer 9 hours ago [-]
Google has been doing this for about 20 years.
When it was introduced, it was considered a feature. Now its just an annoyance.
wincy 14 hours ago [-]
Not OP, but if I’m not interested in using Google’s AI, it’s going to just return these weird bad results that it’d be better off if Google just didn’t even include them as they’re factually wrong?
Hugsbox 12 hours ago [-]
I typed it in my address bar and hit ENTER. It goes to Google, and the AI result is at the top above the regular search results. Don't know what to tell you brother, but as another commenter noted you don't always get the same results out of the same search terms. I've searched for CPL standings other times and gotten results exactly as you've explained, so maybe my experience yesterday was an anomaly.
14 hours ago [-]
0xbadcafebee 10 hours ago [-]
LLM results are nondeterministic, you can ask it 10 times and get 10 different answers. But also it uses your specific profile, location, tracking cookies, etc which changes the model input and thus results. Even the time of day changes the results.
jmathai 14 hours ago [-]
Google will stop being a traditional search engine because they believe they’ve found a more profitable version of it.
One where their users don’t go off to other sites and where they can keep shoving ads in their face.
II2II 12 hours ago [-]
The days of search for untrusted sources were numbered even without LLMs. LLMs are simply accelerating the process. Why would Google simultaneously watch one of its core products fail and fail to invest in what is likely to replace it?
I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues. The effectiveness of search engines has been degraded for decades due to SEO, and it seems as though search engines have been having an increasingly difficult time managing it in recent years. AI on the backend may help them contain it, but it comes at considerable expense. While it may help them grow their market share, it won't help them grow the market and it is a market where people expect the service for free. On the flip side, companies are already starting to sell AI services, so it can generate revenue even before advertising is factored into the picture.
jmathai 8 hours ago [-]
> I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues.
It’s more their business model than it is theory. So I agree that of course this is what they would do.
It’s not a product I’m wanting to use. But I can vote with my feet - they aren’t obliged to do any different.
pishpash 12 hours ago [-]
I thought Google's original goal for a search engine was exactly this, answer any question whatsoever.
jmathai 8 hours ago [-]
Probably was. But they were not originally a giant ad company.
A lot has changed and this technology for this Google is an unfortunate combination for consumers.
FlowingRiver 11 hours ago [-]
The other day, it was the Aussie AFL final. We were in the car and asked it for a score update.
"The team are tied at the end of the third round with the scores 43 to 51".
So it was tied at the end of round 2 for 43, not round 3. Not sure were it got the 51 from and why it figured it was a tie. LLM's pretty cool until they aren't. As they say, the hallucinate 100% of the time but most of the time it is useful.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
You're experiencing how LLMs predict left to right. It would never have said "at the end of the third round the scores are 43 to 51 and the teams are tied" but it painted itself into a corner by saying there was a tie first, presuming the numbers are real.
zx8080 9 hours ago [-]
> My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering?
AI is sold well because the user either corrects it or happily accepts any answer (usually, depending if one is an expert in the question's field).
Search is not the google's area, and it is not the search they sell! They sell ads.
jeremyjh 12 hours ago [-]
Kagi works like you would expect. It searches first - and then if you’ve ended your search with a ? or configured it to always do this - it passes the search results into the assistant and gives you a summary. You can change the default model used for this if you think the cheapest, fastest model Google has is not good enough for the rare occasions you want any model’s opinions about your search results.
0xbadcafebee 10 hours ago [-]
DuckDuckGo does the same but has higher limits
renegat0x0 3 hours ago [-]
I remember when Google was accused for forcing users to go through several pages for answers, because this translated into more clicks, and higher engagement. I am curious whether AI overview will be as bad, as people can tolerate for you to spend more time with it, more queries, which translates into more time spent with Google.
They can show numbers, how much people use their engine, and the numbers goes up.
terribleperson 14 hours ago [-]
Searching first is how Kagi assistant works and it's great.
sylware 30 minutes ago [-]
The gogol agenda of blocking and excluding all web engines not part of their whatwg cartel is moving forward, at a slow pace, steathly.
gogol search was blocked to all noscript/basic HTML browsers last year. I recall people that a few years before, they removed their gmail basic HTML interface not long after that their account creation (then login) would require one the abominations of the whatwg cartel.
I have been working around the gogol search engine since then and my email is now self hosted without DNS (IPv6 literals, see RFC). Yeah, most DNS registrars are now gated by the whatwg cartel web engines in some way, this is the net effect of big corpos toxic behavior.
Pure evil.
anukin 9 hours ago [-]
What do you mean? I can guarantee that there would at least be 3-4 people who got their promo packets approved for this feature.
Google’s features exist for its employees to be promoted.
ozgung 4 hours ago [-]
This is the reason why most people underestimate AI. These free to use models can do a very poor job in easy things. Some people assume that’s the state of the art with AI.
szszrk 3 hours ago [-]
google.com is like the guy in the old joke:
- What's your best skill?
- I can count really fast!
- What's 432*567
- 912
- You sure? Sounds off!
- Hard to tell, but it was fast, wasn't it?!
chrisweekly 12 hours ago [-]
How about Alexa - given a "6 minute green beans timer" - later reporting 11m remaining on said timer? Confronted with the error, "You're right! That 6 minute green beans timer was too ambitious."??!!
I think they're training their models using us correcting them repeatedly. That's my tin foil hat theory and I'm sticking to it!
After all, why would Google do anything for free when it comes to AI?
If you wanted to tease customers with one AI shitty free search box in order for them to then decide to upgrade and pay for Gemini, well, this isn't the way. And so either Google are idiots, or we're helping them for free. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one - we're the product.
01100011 7 hours ago [-]
Until Google wants to pay for reasoning for everyone their AI results will continue to be terrible. In my experience, reasoning fixes a great many of the sorts of hallucinations and falsehoods I've received from googling.
12 hours ago [-]
mapt 11 hours ago [-]
On current website data and very recent information, Gemini is explicitly forbidden from acting as a search engine; If you ask it for references specifically they tend to be hallucinated, over and over again, until it pleads "Sorry, I can't access the Internet".
11 hours ago [-]
dehrmann 14 hours ago [-]
I'm being very mindful of Gell-Mann Amnesia and chatbots. They speak authoritatively and are right often enough, but I've had enough cases of them saying very incorrect things in areas I know well that I have to remind myself that those cases aren't unique.
AndyMcConachie 1 hours ago [-]
The problem is one of information provenance. A search engine shows you stuff that other people have written. It might be right or it might be wrong. But you get to judge that yourself, because you have an idea of where the information came from.
With AI summaries they take that away from you and claim the provenance for themselves. Google is now giving you the answer and they hide where that answer came from. Therefore, you cannot properly evaluate the provenance of the information presented. It still might be right or wrong, but you can no longer properly evaluate it based on source.
sans_souse 11 hours ago [-]
Exactly. Makes me wonder how much of the compute tax on energy would be saved from simply reverting google search to default (the old way)
fhe 9 hours ago [-]
while i share your frustration, Google for their part is trying to adapting a new technology into an existing service. while the whole endeavor might have been misguided, not sure we want to blame them for trying...
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
They had enough money to just buy Perplexity and rebrand it to Google.
chr15m 12 hours ago [-]
I guess the AB tests say people want fast and confidently wrong more than they want slower and correct.
rawmaterial 57 minutes ago [-]
When I’m using a public urinal in 2026, it’s flushing three times, except after you’ve finished. Instead the light switches off during the act, which you’re carrying out blindfolded then. These things were more or less perfected technologies a few decades ago.
The reason I cannot spare HN has to do with the Marxist concept of added value. Enshittification becomes necessary once growth isn’t possible anymore on a corporations home turf, where it was actually innovative.
nobodywillobsrv 4 hours ago [-]
It feels a bit like how Amazon and META purposefully do not create search that can actually help you filter for exactly what you want.
There are incentives to create products that work just barely, just enough for you to use them and don't leave for elsewhere but then they want to maximize everything else like the probability you view side products or ads or just click around and type and generate more data.
Unless someone else offers something better they will offer something that is basically as bad as they can get away with so long as there are benefits to them for doing so..
mlmonkey 10 hours ago [-]
This seems like an implementation bug.
kevin_thibedeau 7 hours ago [-]
You are posing a question that requires deductive reasoning. LLMs can only approximate that if they have sufficient corpus to find their way to a believable response. Their willingness to spout bullshit in such scenarios where their sources are sparse is a problem but you can't expect them to function like a fully developed mind.
globular-toast 5 hours ago [-]
Well, isn't this an example of why Google are going in the direction the OP is complaining about? Why are you searching with a question? Are you hoping to find a forum post with this exact question or something?
I don't understand the game you are interested in, but you should be searching something like "Xball qualifying results" or "Xball playoff rules" or something. Instead, by asking a question you are expecting Google to be AI.
They know what people are typing in so it seems they are quite justified into pivoting from a search engine to an AI.
dizhn 6 hours ago [-]
I agree. When I read the post I immediately thought what is Gemini chat doing there when it should be a search engine. It could probably give sensible answers if it defaulted to search first. It looks more like they are trying to showcase Gemini, not augment google search. They might even be thinking "search" is a dying product.
pishpash 12 hours ago [-]
The first time, sure, it saves compute. The second time you ask, I feel like it should be the time to go into thinking/verification mode. But who are you? Are you paying? Does the answer being correct generate ad dollars? No? Then your usage mode isn't even being optimized for in their A/B test, probably.
In fact, if hallucinating the wrong answer hooks you into doing even more searches or into buying something useless, it would be preferred!
10 hours ago [-]
dfxm12 13 hours ago [-]
And it's going to get worse over time (kinda like how Google search results got worse over time) as ads get introduced and people try to game the ai response. General purpose AI chatbots are a waste.
shevy-java 14 hours ago [-]
> My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering?
Because the point of AI slop is to waste your time. You just lost about 30 seconds of your life trying to get a correct answer. AI was lying to you, so you had to spend time to counter the AI slop lies here.
I solved it by banning all AI slopness; in the browser some extensions do that. The world becomes better without AI slopness.
DANmode 9 hours ago [-]
They’re trying to keep it from “thinking too hard”/using “too many” resources.
That simple.
Broad rules across specific subjects like this are tough to get right.
Just lots of fine-tuning and exceptions.
I had their chatbot avoid pulling a URL from archive.org with a couple pretty impressive steps of mental gymnastics basically telling me how I could do it myself, but refusing until I pushed.
aaron695 11 hours ago [-]
[dead]
nutrientharvest 14 hours ago [-]
Like it or not, this is exactly what normies have always wanted out of search engines - a little guy in their computer they can talk to for answers, advice and reassurance. They've always been trying to use Google Search this way and have been confused and annoyed that it doesn't work. And now it does! It's a massive quality of life improvement for the average user and a huge product win for Google.
WarmWash 13 hours ago [-]
Its also why Google Search "went to shit years ago"
Technically adept people would search using ordered keywords and phrases, which would have excellent results with Google 2006:
Dario Turkey NBA "never coming over"
But regular people agonized over this because to them a search was
What were some of the memes about Dario staying in turkey
Google put immense effort into calibrating search for regular people instead of engineers.
helterskelter2 8 hours ago [-]
I'm not an engineer, but this is how I was taught to use digital search back in my elementary school's library in the second or third grade (it replaced the card catalogue) and it's how I've searched ever since. We had an entire class period on how to keep our search keywords to the minimum so we'd get good results.
wpm 7 hours ago [-]
The problem was our parents never got this course, and sadly, neither did the generations after us. "Computer" Class for me (born early 90s) was keyboarding -> how to find information online -> how to evaluate and rate itegrity of internet sources -> Microsoft Office.
The kids who stopped getting that are probabaly old enough for a bachelors degree now. Today, the schools mostly just hand them an iPad and a Google Workspace sign-in and pretend everything is fine.
pwdisswordfishq 3 hours ago [-]
> how to find information online -> how to evaluate and rate itegrity of internet sources
You were lucky to have that part. Mine, as I remember, was just Microsoft Office throughout.
globular-toast 5 hours ago [-]
They did. Our local libraries in the 90s had internet courses you could take that would teach you how to browse and search. But this stopped for everyone around 2000 when suddenly knowing how to use any piece of software was considered assumed knowledge for some reason.
b112 2 hours ago [-]
This is also why the wacko and bizarro concept that "removing options and configs from programs" aka Gnome's big purge more than a decade ago, is nonsense today.
All those studies about GUI usability were done in the early 2000s. Before phones. When most people were just learning how to use a computer. The idea of options certainly was confusing, because "clicking on things" was even confusing.
Yet today, we have a populous which, more and more, grew up with computers. And loves to personalize. And wants options. So just keep that in mind, all you frontenders, config options aren't necessarily bad. Ancient studies have little relevance 24 years later.
Sorry to hijack a bit, but felt it was relevant to courses, teaching, and the state of time in 2000 vs now.
deno 3 hours ago [-]
You could just have a specialized model that rewrites prose questions to actual search keywords (i.e. what power users do in their heads), and even a 2nd one that does a fitting pass based on intention after querying.
Answering with AI slop is a choice.
HaZeust 13 hours ago [-]
Christ, thank you! I’ve been saying this for years and no one I’ve spoken to, even engineers, could acknowledge the level of “chunking” that’s been engrained in them over the years for turning inquiries into keyword/phrase shorthand, and that this is NOT something most people want to do, and is the killer app of Google AI. This time around, you CAN type in an input box what you would say to a human in everyday conversation, AND expect a reasonable response. That’s invaluable to a casual user.
Terr_ 13 hours ago [-]
> this is NOT something most people want to do
I've always felt that "proper" and responsible LLM use for search [0] would be two boxes: You can describe what you want in the first, and it'll propose search terms in the second, and then those get executed normally.
Yes, the "average user" [1] might not usually care about the second box... Until they need to because the query/results are wrong.
Showing them in tandem means:
1. Users are at least capable of learning through exposure.
2. Users may realize a key term can be added which the model could never have guessed.
3. Users may recognize a term in there that doesn't make sense, allowing them to detect a translation error.
4. If good search-terms leads to a bad outcome, it is possible for someone to report and diagnose it, rather than a fully black-box mystery.
_____
[0] Not just for websites, but also things like internal business software, or SQL queries.
In the words of Edsger Dijkstra, "Projects promoting programming in 'natural language' are intrinsically doomed to fail." I think for something as bespoke as a search engine, a DSL that accepts quotes, logical operators, and specific terms definitely allows for far greater specificity than natural language can (at least in an equivalent amount of text).
I think the two-tiered input-output approach you propose makes sense. Allowing users to inspect and mutate lower-level languages allows the user to make modifications as needed. I think it's very much in the spirit of free software.
But then again, for text-based search specifically (search engines, notes, etc.), I think there is some value in querying the LLM directly, as it is able to fuzzy search by inspecting its weights. This results in a lesser degree of specificity, which allows for more false positives, but can maybe capture similar words (i.e., synonyms / typos / tenses) or higher-level semantic concepts.
Maybe they're just two different search algorithms, and the user should be able to choose between them.
Thanks for linking the article, I found it very interesting.
tokioyoyo 11 hours ago [-]
Your described thinking pattern does not apply to 95%+ users, and might add confusion leading to retention loss (e.g. 2 text boxes? Wtf, two boxes? What do i type in the second one? Whatever i’ll switch to the usual). Every project with at least 100K non-tech users I’ve worked on, has shown that sort of thinking just doesn’t translate.
And regarding “average doesn’t exist” - that’s true. But no company does a/b testing to land on average. I’d assume a good 85%-kinda pass rate for these type of experiments.
savory_pancake 9 hours ago [-]
I think A/B testing may have value in selecting a specific path preferred by 85% of users, but it seems like alienating the remaining 15% doesn't feel great.
95% of users might not want the double-textbox, but 5% might, and some might want to use it someday.
I think, make enough of these decisions, and there's bound to be mounting friction for users with different preferences navigating your app.
Ideally, the app should offer a way for the user to intuitively configure the app to their own liking.
tokioyoyo 9 hours ago [-]
When an experiment passes, you don’t really lose that 15%. Most of the time they just get used to the other behaviour. Case in point - we’ve been whining about Google’s deterioration of search queries for ages, yet we’re still using it.
Ideally, yeah maybe, but why bother with extra implementation, support, costs and etc., when people fold and use the new way anyways?
myaccountonhn 5 hours ago [-]
I mean when you're the size of Google designing a search engine, with probably around 5 billion users, ideally yeah you'd bother.
taormina 3 hours ago [-]
Ideally. But when you’re Google, what are they going to do, use Bing?
ikr678 9 hours ago [-]
It's not just engineers, I think it's more an age thing.
For a certain cohort (eg those currently between 35 and 45) who did any sort of grade school computer/library classes in the 90's/early2000's, 'chunking' or keyword searching was one of the main skills taught.
xd1936 9 hours ago [-]
I mean, I'm in my mid-30s, and "keywording" and "how to use search engines" was taught in my US Midwest public school library/media center.
zb3 8 hours ago [-]
Except sometimes I explicitly do not want to reveal what my search intent is / explain why I want to search for this. The Google 2006 method gave me some room to do this, but now it feels like I can't do that on my own and I need to talk to Gemini. Horrible experience.
ozozozd 12 hours ago [-]
If you are a fast typer, maybe the longer query might just come out naturally.
If you are properly lazy, you must expect or at least attempt to get results for the shorter query. Especially on a phone.
hiddencost 11 hours ago [-]
It's not about shorter vs longer.
Many people who learned to search the Internet in early 2000s learned "boolean search queries" (terms connected with AND or OR). They're talking about the difference between boolean search queries and natural language search queries.
broodbucket 14 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure about this. I know complete normies that lament how bad Google is now and how often the search is useless. I think many people just want search to search.
gruez 14 hours ago [-]
Like, today, or the pre-chatgpt age where all the common questions have been spammed to death by SEO farms?
cwnyth 13 hours ago [-]
Google's search has been frustratingly awful for quite some time now, long before AI.
markdoubleyou 12 hours ago [-]
Today I googled "emacs" to get the download link.
Top of the search result page: "Did you mean: vim"
Felt like I was being trolled.
ezwoodland 11 hours ago [-]
That's an Easter egg. It goes the other way too (vim -> did you mean emacs).
swed420 11 hours ago [-]
Back in the day, more people might have seen something like that as a clever easter egg.
These days, we default to
"Day 3,449: google's still broken. what was i thinking?"
mrheosuper 8 hours ago [-]
Back in the day, GG search was so reliable that when stuff like that happened, people think it's intentional
Back in 1998, I specifically started using Google because it somehow managed to avoid spammy search results, unlike its competitors. Today, unfortunately, I find that a lot of Google's search results are spammy, useless information that is there for clicks and advertising only.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
That was Google's whole selling point and reason for existing: "other search engines suck. We invented this algorithm to make one that doesn't suck."
Sharlin 52 minutes ago [-]
They have obviously been in an arms race with spammers and scammers since then. In 1998 it was relatively easy to stay ahead, but to keep winning for 30 years?
FlowingRiver 11 hours ago [-]
Googles quality issue seem to be, in part, a market driven choice. Services like Kagi use a large part of the Google data base but with all their additional capital extraction sorting on top.
Google can do it, but they must appease the share holders.
breezeTrowel 11 hours ago [-]
I fail to see how driving users to competitors and crippling the search experience appeases the shareholders. Can you elaborate?
bayindirh 3 hours ago [-]
I'd argue that Kagi serves a niche of power users who knows what they want from their search engine and RTFM to get they want the way they want.
Google works like an automatic black-box which tries to deduce your intention from 4-5 words you typed in hastily.
I believe any ordinary user is still pretty happy about Google search in its current iteration. My mom doesn't get a YouTube premium account because she says she likes the ads, for example.
So, from our bubble, Google might be regressing, but the picture might be very different for the majority of Google users.
jbs789 3 hours ago [-]
Mostly driven by time horizons. The short time horizon of shareholders.
JumpCrisscross 10 hours ago [-]
Every complaint about Google is evidence of someone who still uses Google.
timnetworks 14 hours ago [-]
So if enough 737's crash into the water Boeing will start making submarines? Product managers deserve a special express queue when in line for the Warm Place.
gruez 13 hours ago [-]
>So if enough 737's crash into the water Boeing will start making submarines?
>In 1968, Spencer Silver, a scientist at 3M in the United States, attempted to develop a super-strong adhesive. [...]
>Post-its were launched across the United States in 1980.[20][21] The following year, they were launched in Canada and Europe.[22] Post-it Notes as we know them were patented by Fry in 1993 as a "repositionable pressure-sensitive adhesive sheet material".[23]
edelbitter 13 hours ago [-]
Another one that to me is equally impressive: instant glues
The first thorough research went into them when looking for new clear plastics, and this route of making them was ruled out because it would rather stick to everything than ease the production of objects with nice optical properties. The story goes, it was so annoying to work with that it was initially shelved, and only years after being considered again and ruled out again for a different project, the utility of its reliable and fast bonding was fully appreciated.
dolebirchwood 14 hours ago [-]
No, we did not want it to offer weirdly irrelevant fake sympathy. We just wanted to talk in plain English and get relevant answers back in plain English, without us having to reel it it from going down some emotionally schizophrenic rabbit hole (like in TFA).
ncruces 14 hours ago [-]
In TFA the chatbot got confused, and the author never decided to correct it with "no I'm trying to find an old tweet about NBA Dario" which a normie would do, and be satisfied with the result.
andersonpico 13 hours ago [-]
always the same response: "you're holding it wrong"
shanemhansen 13 hours ago [-]
I think they are really pulling a "no true Scotsman".
"No true normie would be dissatisfied with this unhelpful response, really it's exactly what a true normie wants"
al_borland 12 hours ago [-]
I was always taken aback when I’d see people type fully formed sentences into an old Google search, when a couple keywords would have done just fine.
It reminds me of the motion controls we now have in video game controllers. In the 80s I remember my parents moving the controller as if that was going to help their Teris block or Mario go a little further than the D-pad alone. We laughed when people did this. Now, the controllers respond to what people had been doing for decades with no effect.
I suppose this is what technology should do, adapt to how people naturally use the thing, rather than trying to rigidly adhere to conventions users are expected to learn… that were only conventions due to the limits of technology when it was first developed.
nextlevelwizard 5 hours ago [-]
TIL I was a normie. I don't get why anyone wouldn't want this if it worked. I don't get enjoyment from the act of searching and clicking through links and verifying. I want to know a thing and if the magic box can tell it to me that would be lovely
layer8 3 hours ago [-]
First of all, it usually doesn’t work, so “if it worked” remains kinda moot at present. Then I also prefer only typing a few keywords, rather than having to spell out in length what my goal is.
NicuCalcea 5 hours ago [-]
I get why you would want that, but I don't get why you don't get that it might not be the case for others. I love searching and clicking and reading around. Sometimes I read fascinating things about topics I wasn't searching for. I can't imagine a world where all my web searching is done through an annoying chatbot.
II2II 14 hours ago [-]
I'm going to agree and disagree.
I agree that plain language queries is what people wanted. We've been seeing Google shift in that direction for well over a decade. And of course people are looking towards search engines for answers. There may be different expectations for where those answers are coming from, and there are cases where people are simply trying to source information, but those differences are likely just noise as far as Google is concerned.
I don't agree with people expecting advice or reassurance from a search engine. There will be some people who do that. It may even be a sizeable number of people. But using this article as an example that a majority of people want such a thing is silly.
I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
New technology requires new approaches. It's as simple as that.
throwaway219450 12 hours ago [-]
The big selling point of Google used to be that their fuzzy search was significantly better than just about anyone else, and you could do advanced query filters. Now if you do that, because showing the user zero results is unacceptable, you’ll get all sorts of crap that “doesn’t contain” your query - the results say so!
But anthropomorphic interfaces have been around for a while, from Clippy to the Windows 10+ installers that refer to the royal We during setup.
throwaway27448 9 hours ago [-]
Not to mention most of those "advanced query filters" simply aren't functional anymore.
Terr_ 12 hours ago [-]
> What they failed to do was give context to Google
The context is: "I'm using the premier web-search engine of the internet to search for things on the internet the same way that zillions of people have searched for things on the internet for 20 years."
It's not missing, Google simply chose to build something new that will ignore it because they're trying to alter the relationship.
throwaway27448 10 hours ago [-]
> I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
Is there any evidence that there is an informal (llm) parallel to keyword search? At least with keywords it's analyzable what query you might use to find a given document. How can we replicate this with LLMs? Why would google care if the average user doesn't?
aquentinn 11 hours ago [-]
How on earth did you figure out what the 'average' person wants? 'Average' by the way doesn't exist, its an artificial math concept. What people want is an endless list of things and a bot no longer being objective, as in just addressing the search query, isn't one of those things.
1e1a 13 hours ago [-]
I absolutely despise when people cite google as a source, especially now where 90% of the time they're citing the LLM overview. The old answer widget was at least a direct quote from some website.
morkalork 13 hours ago [-]
When I was in grade 8 and 9 in public school, we'd got a couple random lessons in the library on the computers learning to search online databases and catalogues. For most of us it was our introduction to keyword matching and boolean logic. Sadly, instead of continuing teaching, services have instead phased out those basic operators and here we are. We also learned to make websites using Pagemaker and edit the generated html, that was just fun.
mattlondon 14 hours ago [-]
Yeah - exactly this. And yet people still say they've lost the AI race because Gemini 3.5 Pro or whatever has not been released yet... And here we are with fast and decent AI being served to and used by billions of people (most without them probably even realising), making ever-increasing revenue, gaining back market share etc. Who cares if their coding models are not as good as opus 5.5 when they're printing more and more money every quarter.
roncesvalles 14 hours ago [-]
Gemini is easily the single most popular LLM family used in the world, period.
As in, it probably has 90% of the market share. Possibly even 99%, going by number of prompts made.
girvo 14 hours ago [-]
This is not a “gotcha” kind of argumentative question, I am genuinely asking curiously: is the AI overview and AI lens thing really making Google lots of money?
zormino 12 hours ago [-]
I don't think directly, but search as a business category was once a solved domain with a single winner, and suddenly it was up for grabs again with LLMs. If Google ever lost search, they would lose Ads which is their entire core business. Google 'won' in the sense that they successfully integrated AI into search fast enough and well enough that they will (likely) hold their place through this transition, and can still funnel ads to users which is already integrated into their AI overview.
bakugo 14 hours ago [-]
It's true that Google is still very successful, but simply calling their AI a successful product misses the full picture. Their flagship product has always been and continues to be advertising, the AI overview is only there to pull people away from ChatGPT and, similar to ChatGPT itself, is not a product the vast majority of people would be interested in paying for - it exists only as a sort of loss leader to keep people looking at ads, and is not making any sort of profit on its own (quite the contrary, I imagine it's pretty expensive to run every query through an LLM, even if it's a small one.)
AI labs have long since realized that the only real path to direct profitability is coding, and in this, Google have indeed fallen behind.
You can, of course, argue that none of this matters as long as the whole is making a profit, but I think the distinction is important.
globular-toast 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah. We even had Ask Jeeves back in the day. I don't remember it being much more than a search engine, but it's thing was you would ask it questions.
I've seen normies type all kinds of stuff into Google expecting it to be the magic genie that just knows things. Even the top comment in this comment section is an example of this! Google know better than any of us this is what people want, so they made it.
raincole 9 hours ago [-]
It's just a typical case of XY problem[0].
X is search engine. Y is to get answers. (most) People want to get answers. If they can skip search engine part it'd be a net positive for them.
Ironically that programmers should be the ones who understand XY problem the most (after all the name is coined by a programmer to address it), not the "normies."
This is also why even lowest-intelligence emoji spamming slop models from ChatGPT are a massive hit
and something like 3% of LLM userbase pays to get access to the higher tier models with actual useful thinking
mort96 14 hours ago [-]
If it's thinking I want, I can do that myself. Chat bots are occasionally useful search tools, but thinking doesn't really help with that. So why pay?
abathologist 13 hours ago [-]
No it isn't.
throwaway27448 11 hours ago [-]
I understand this "vibe search" meme is the prevalant narrative coming from "users just want star trek" google, but I've got to wonder what long-term impacts focusing on users who don't grasp how to work software will be. It's probably fine or positive for short-term revenue, but this is also culture loss: the users who know what they want will move on to more functional software. 100% of the feedback I've seen about recent changes has been frustration that a reliable tool has stopped working. Obviously, this is selection bias but it's still meaningful.
And the impact on discourse has been, frankly, scary. People screenshotting the search output as a source seems to be the norm now, even if it's obviously incoherent or straight-up incorrect.
EDIT: I suppose I can adapt to a search engine that expects me to interact with it like a human. I just have no clue how to translate most of my skills. I am desperately hoping there's a way to turn off semantic interpretation of a given query.
monideas 10 hours ago [-]
Even more generally you need the elite strata within society to actually lead and promote high culture with a sense of noblesse oblige rather than optimize everything for just satiating the base desires of the masses (the middle class) and the rabble (the under class).
This eventually destroys the society because the elite strata itself is drawn from a small selection of the children from the middle and underclass who are identified as having elite qualities and are put into elite schools and other elite conditioning institutions. When you don’t even show these types of children what high culture even is then they don’t have an avenue to express and develop their elite talents and sensibilities, then they never get identified, or perhaps the special tracks and institutions for them don’t even exist by that point
This eventually starves the elite strata of genuinely elite people
watwut 4 hours ago [-]
The people who consider themselves "higher strata of the society" tend to be the ones that damage it the most.
cyh555 7 hours ago [-]
yeah, except that when it goes wrong then it's also pointless, the fault's on the users themselves though
joe_the_user 10 hours ago [-]
I feel like there's certain formula where any enshittification is justified as "this is what the normies want". And sure, all the crap is something someone might want if they didn't think for half a second. But even normies are better than that once forced to think.
sublinear 14 hours ago [-]
The debate doesn't end there yet because what's considered a "scam" is a point on the gradient of user acceptance.
Too many users still reject this for it to not be a scam. The highest acceptance is from boomers and the delusional. Neither group gives a shit if AI actually works because they don't have work to do.
BatchJob 13 hours ago [-]
This isnt wierd. Its disturbing. I believe that the tech industry is geniunely trying to scare and disorient the public into thinking they are the only thing standing between them and some evil AI overlord which is obviously just the tech industry itself and a pile of poor trained LLMs.
I believe this "fear" factor they are driving they believe will increase their credibility when they call LLMs AI and is a con towards convincing everyone they have reached AGI. Its definitely marketing preparation so that when they do claim AGI we will believe it without question. (or else!)
If these folks didnt have so much money it would be something to laught at, but its now becoming geniunely disturbing and Im starting to think that the folks running these shops are probably flirting with or experiencing extended mental illness.
I would feel sorry for them if I cared. I dont care. The tech industry is a joke and we are all going to be ashamed to be a part of it by the time this is over. Shut it down.
howunfortunate 12 hours ago [-]
Is it so hard to imagine they just believe what they are saying?
15 years ago, if you asked 100 people in tech to define "artificial general intelligence", 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
But I'm starting to notice more "polarization" around this topic and it's weird. We're in a new era and I think no one knows the future, a lot of different beliefs are reasonable.
zahlman 12 hours ago [-]
> 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
> Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Because the way that some people talk about current models supposedly "passing the Turing test" makes me think they would have given ELIZA a pass too. It's just so obvious that none of them are convincingly human out of the box.
famouswaffles 11 hours ago [-]
Eliza would not remotely pass the turing test as turing envisioned in his paper. And frontier labs are not optimizing for 'convincingly human'. If Open AI or Anthropic wanted, frontier models could pass much more human like.
1123581321 11 hours ago [-]
Current models have passed a formally administered Turing test.
If you’ve never participated in a formal Turing test, either as human user or as a responder to the human, you might find it interesting, and possibly humbling.
Andrex 8 hours ago [-]
The creepiest part of Voight-Kampff in Blade Runner was the idea that I'd fail it (not imagining myself as a replicant, but still as a human).
azan_ 2 hours ago [-]
> how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
I guess unless the question was loaded it would be like 95% agreeing we have AGI.
The_Blade 11 hours ago [-]
> Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Feynman would laugh and say, "i told you so. i'll be at Gianonni's"
whatisthiseven 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, Sam Altman is a known liar and cheat. With hundreds of billions of dollars on the line, the simplest answer is these are publicity stunts to grow revenue before an IPO.
I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
The danger stunt is also a major distraction from talking about the real quality issues of LLMaS (LLMs as a Service). How many tokens are consumed? What quality? Was I downgraded?
By forcing the discussion about doomerism, they avoid real discussions about their service. Which is exactly what they want. You can bet when they go to "regulate" LLMs, they won't be asking the department of weights and measures to validate they are counting tokens fairly. No.
Maximum skepticism should be employed.
andrewflnr 4 hours ago [-]
> I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
Unfortunately, lol no. Incompetence and recklessness have no bottom. (Which is not to say Altman is trustworthy).
astrange 7 hours ago [-]
This is kind of like saying the warnings about cancer on cigarettes, or oil spills, are regulatory capture because the tobacco and oil companies think it makes them look cool.
They really do think AI is very dangerous and can end the world!
SV_BubbleTime 7 hours ago [-]
And they are the “only ones” responsible enough to have this power. What an amazing coincidence!
ozozozd 12 hours ago [-]
“Beliefs” are reasonable in a technical field?
Hypotheses would be reasonable. Beliefs, almost by definition, don’t have much to do reasoning, and thus, definitely not _reasonable_.
I appreciate that you have correctly designated them as beliefs though.
warkdarrior 11 hours ago [-]
Beliefs are hypotheses not testable on a reasonable timeframe.
shikshake 9 hours ago [-]
Sorry but that’s a very naive mindset. These are companies run by verified liars with billions of invested dollars. They don’t believe in anything except extracting labor and capital to make billions more, and they will say whatever they need to say to achieve those goals. Any “belief” they may have had went out the window the moment they accepted VC money.
ozozozd 12 hours ago [-]
A lot of them are definitely flirting with Messiah complex. Not sure if that’s mental illness or just extreme arrogance.
FlowingRiver 11 hours ago [-]
A bit of both.
tennisflyi 8 hours ago [-]
All of tech is co-opted. No worker with a buss, cafeteria, Gesnler-level architecture understands the normal person
vanuatu 11 hours ago [-]
I think the simplest explanation is that they genuinely believe in AI safety risk (see: huggingface, govt websites hacked, etc) vs. it all being an industry conspiracy
If OpenAI dropped Astra in Codex instead of GPT-3 in 2022 most people would've believed it was AGI despite its limitations, but the goalposts seem to shift with every release
robin_reala 14 hours ago [-]
I don’t understand how we’re 60 comments in and yet no-one has suggested that the problem is that you’re continuing to use Google despite it changing its core offering out from underneath your feet. If you want search (which isn’t an unreasonable desire) then Google isn’t the place for you any more.
kelnos 13 hours ago [-]
Yup. I've been using Kagi for a couple years now and haven't looked back. If I'm on someone else's computer where I don't have my Kagi login, DuckDuckGo is usually sufficient.
Paying for search isn't for everyone, of course, but I like being the customer and not the product, and I think the quality of the experience flows from that.
walrus01 11 hours ago [-]
I categorically refuse to use Kagi as long as they're paying money to Yandex and funding the Russian war effort.
These comments come up every time someone mentions Kagi on HN, yet the commentator apparently never boycotts Google because it pays for the American or Israeli war effort. Why is Ukraine the only war that matters?
anenefan 9 hours ago [-]
Understandable but not everyone in Russia is for that war, even if they have to pay taxes.
It's terribly unfortunate ... but such that it is, I know if I absolutely need results when other alternative search engines are doing little better than Google ... ie not at all, then last try it's Yandex, which has seen more issues creep in the last few years using switch operators, than I recall back in 2015; but any amount of helpful results is better than zero, as well as not wasting hours of my time. But at times sometimes Yandex also strikes out oddly, almost like there's an unseen cabal that have decreed some more or less benign content off limits.
entropyneur 5 hours ago [-]
You don't have to be for war to be instrumental in it. But Yandex isn't even just a Russian taxpayer which would be bad enough. It's been apprehended by the government and turned into a key element of its propaganda machine. It's literally one of the things that keeps Russia what it is. And using results from it? That's just insane. They are poisoned, and we actually know about it in detail thanks to a source code leak. If I wanted to see what the Russian propaganda is pushing today I can go to Yandex directly. But including it in my search results automatically?
Gareth321 4 hours ago [-]
While I agree with everything you write, Google results are equally poisoned. Yandex provides results which the US government censors. The only way we can currently get a full picture of the internet is using search engines oppositionally. Kagi does this using an amalgamation, and unfortunately that means using Yandex and other sources.
I would love to live in a world where governments were not censoring content.
walrus01 3 hours ago [-]
Could you share with us some examples of search results provided by Yandex which the US government censors? What specific domains or sites does Yandex index and provide results on?
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
It's well known that Yandex is good for finding piracy websites.
kypro 47 minutes ago [-]
It was also very good during the pandemic. Google results at the time were extremely biased towards Western government narratives. Some mainstream articles which took a skeptical view on lockdowns and the virus orgin seemingly would not show regardless of how you tried to search them on Google.
Yandax on the other hand tended to be more neutral.
walrus01 3 hours ago [-]
And yet, I somehow seem to be aware that 1337x.to exists without ever having used Yandex to find it...
I have no doubt that Russia is a free for all of finding pirated stuff online, since what US copyright holder is going to bother to even attempt to sue people in russia for something like hosting a website with direct download epub files of popular books?
someonebaggy 2 hours ago [-]
?? You knowing one of the sites a search engine can find doesn't somehow invalidate that the search engine can find the sites.
Gareth321 3 hours ago [-]
Of course. [Google provides a dashboard for exactly this.](https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/go...) 275,597 named items for removal since 2011. You can download the report yourself. Content ordered for removal cover topics such as health all the way to copyright.
One major battle ground has been sci-hub. This is best described as a collective whose stated goal is to make science free for everyone rather than having it stuck behind a journal paywall. The entire journal industry is one giant scam, but I digress. U.S. laws have repeatedly been passed and tested, and Google has been repeatedly ordered to remove domains such as sci-hub.tw and sci-hub.cc, among many more.
This is far more expansive than scientific papers, of course, and extends to countless copyright adjacent websites. Sites which have been repeatedly targeted include YTS, FMovies, and AniWave (and their associated domains).
I should also expand my previous comment. Google doesn't just censor results which the U.S. government has requested. It very frequently censors results of its own volition. Whether for ideological or fiscal reasons. One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Whether by the government, or for ideological or fiscal reasons, when I search for information I expect to be given that information. Google is an unreliable source. They all are.
walrus01 3 hours ago [-]
> One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech? I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
Gareth321 3 hours ago [-]
> Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech?
I consider all censorship wrong. The reason I use the Proud Boys is because it was a well publicised incident and has been a reliable indicator of censorship since then. If you have left wing domains I could include in my litmus test I would be grateful. I'm sure that Yandex censors some of them, which is why I say above: the best way to circumvent censorship is oppositional use.
> I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
What a remarkably fast progression from, "what is being censored?" to "here's why it's a good thing." I didn't claim Google has a responsibility to provide uncensored results. I and others are explaining that Google doesn't provide reliably uncensored results, and that that is why providers like Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
walrus01 2 hours ago [-]
> Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech. I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
Gareth321 2 hours ago [-]
> And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech.
And if you would do me the courtesy of reading my comments you would see that I am not claiming Yandex to be censorship-free. The exact opposite.
> I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
You must be easily alarmed. I find it revealing that you haven't provided any censored left wing content which I can add to my test. Instead of engaging with what I am writing, you repeat empty aphorisms and written tics which should best be contained to echo-chambers like Reddit and Bluesky.
Either way it seems you've given up any pretense of caring about the subject of censorship as it applies to search engines.
Gareth321 4 hours ago [-]
Which search engine do you use? I'm eager to understand which ones have clean hands.
srdjanr 3 hours ago [-]
With the Iran war now we should also boycott all US companies by this logic, and I don't see many people doing that
jonjon16 3 hours ago [-]
Understandable. Personally, I'm also against that war.
Do you perhaps are also against the Israeli-Palestinian war?
Can you also CATEGORICALLY REFUSE to use any service, government or agency that aids either the acts of genocide from Israel or fuel the terrorist attacks from Hamas?
SV_BubbleTime 7 hours ago [-]
You do know every single European country that buys oil from Russia pays more to them than they do to Ukraine for defense… right?
Are you our there protesting the EU?
Drupon 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
TiredOfLife 6 hours ago [-]
I recently found out why kagi loves russia so much. The ceo is a huge Slobodan Milošević fan
mnicky 4 hours ago [-]
Do you have source?
userbinator 13 hours ago [-]
It's weird to read this comment not long after having experienced Google giving zero results for a search, and then finding what I wanted on Bing.
maven29 11 hours ago [-]
Bing has been better than google since 2019. Try googling in a fresh browser and see how much personalization contributes to the reranking and query rewriting.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
Plus, DDG is Bing. And everyone recommends DDG as a Google alternative.
nobody_r_knows 1 hours ago [-]
[dead]
eks391 10 hours ago [-]
At work I can't customise much, like the browser I use, but I did ditch Google/Chrome for Bing/Edge years ago. Not what I would usually recommend, but when work only allows those two options...
drpixie 11 hours ago [-]
On Bing!!!! Sorry, in the back of my mind, bing is that very sad MS search that was terrible at everything :) And it gave you something useful - astonishing.
userbinator 10 hours ago [-]
Bing was never great, but Google has gotten so much worse in the past year or so (ironically, the biggest fall was shortly after they started requiring JS around a year ago) that it's now the better choice. Yahoo is another one I've started using instead.
tim333 12 hours ago [-]
Guy ends
>I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
so there you go. I still use Google even if the AI is a bit weird at times - you can always ignore it.
kkkqkqkqkqlqlql 14 hours ago [-]
Then what is it? DuckDuckGo?
eks391 10 hours ago [-]
There are time of options. Some people find their happy place with DDG. Others with Braves Search, Kagi, Firefox. There's dozens to choose from. Opera and Vivaldi probably have search engines now if you are down to change your browser too. It depends on what your priorities are, but there's a search engine out there for you that is better than Google search
delis-thumbs-7e 5 hours ago [-]
Kagi is brilliant. I find the whole Yandex -thing silly (EU spending on liquefied gas etc. from Russia is more than Yandex’s whole annual revenue) and only wish same scrutiny would be put on corporations funding Israel genocides.
I use DDG at work on Firefox with all AI blocked. If I would apart from Kagi, I would use SearXNG locally accessing it elsewhere with Tailscale. I think Hister seems promising, but have not tried it myself yet.
prinny_ 14 hours ago [-]
Kagi.
armadyl 12 hours ago [-]
Trading using Google for giving money directly to a company that directly funds Russia’s efforts in the Ukraine invasion, that acknowledges and refuses to do anything about it, doesn’t seem like the greatest swap.
nisiddharth 10 hours ago [-]
A small search engine with a tiny user base is paying another search engine enough that it is paying enough tax on received money to fund a war? How does that make any sense? I also hate the war, I'm not on any side, but this just doesn't make any sense.
therein 11 hours ago [-]
You might say directly in a sentence as many times as you want, it doesn't make it the truth. Kagi is not directly supporting Russian military efforts. It is a gross oversimplification.
armadyl 10 hours ago [-]
Yandex pays taxes into the Russian government which is controlling military actions in Ukraine. Is this or is this not true?
Yandex pays taxes based off revenue it takes in from companies like Kagi. Is this or is this not true?
People here who pay into Kagi provide the search engine with the funding to pay Yandex. Is this or is this not true?
You can say it’s “not direct” and it’s an “oversimplification,” but the money still ends up in the same place all the same. You can try to wash your hands of it all you want by playing mental gymnastics.
Willingly paying Kagi knowing this makes you at minimum partially complicit in Russia’s invasion and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
cmoski 9 hours ago [-]
Use Google and support US & Israel's wars instead!
therein 8 hours ago [-]
If it was a direct transaction like you claimed, you wouldn't need to describe so many steps.
armadyl 7 hours ago [-]
I guess then you would also believe that someone who voted for the current president of the US also isn’t directly responsible for the war in Iran, ICE killing US citizens, and the alienation of Canada.
It’s easy to say “I’m not directly responsible” if you’re proxying it through someone else.
therein 6 hours ago [-]
> someone who voted for the current president of the US also isn’t directly responsible for the war in Iran
Yes I would. And not for an ideological reason or political affiliation but because that's just not how "directly" works.
driverdan 12 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately DDG sucks now too. Most of the top results are LLM generated slop.
anenefan 9 hours ago [-]
Not using the A.I. version, though I do have an A.I. assit box up top at times. I've noted more rubbish search results lately -- I feel at at times DDG just doesn't bother to try or has deceased the giving a flaquk setting. My goto has been DDG primarily for about 10 years. I've struck this unhelpful Meh response on and off the last couple months primarily with slightly off the beaten track queries ...often having to go to something I had to do with Google, using quotes around an often common term I really needed the result to include to finally trying to narrow it down quickly defaulting to no results at all - then having to switch back to Google, where Google would surprise me with at least a handful of suitable results.
The_Blade 11 hours ago [-]
can confirm as of this morning. last i checked Brave's Leo was slop but i'm sure the models have changed
of course Google / Gemini search is slop as well but it is at least advanced slop. not like whatever Soylent 1.5 Flash that DDG is bringing to the table
khazhoux 14 hours ago [-]
That’s kinda the entire point of this comment thread, no?
edent 14 hours ago [-]
Most people in the world are profoundly lonely. They'll take whatever parasocial relationships they can get - reaction videos, podcasts of people chatting, Eliza simulating concern.
Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
The only way out is to try and make connections with real people.
Case in point, why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?
It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
iamnothere 12 hours ago [-]
This is making weird judgements about people just trying to find information.
I don’t have any friends who are code inspectors, so I can’t ask them obscure questions about something that I want to repair in a way that it will be done properly.
I don’t have any friends who are mechanics, and even if they were they probably wouldn’t know what specific part I’d need to fix a specific problem on my old shitbox—they would look it up.
I don’t want half assed guesses to these questions, I want to find the exact correct answer. My friends and I can talk about other stuff that’s not just trading random facts. Trading facts usually makes for poor conversation unless you’re a hobbyist talking shop with another hobbyist.
Now Gemini (and Google) are not good at finding the right answer anymore, so I have to use other sources for that, but I find your judgement about people using search or search LLMs to be misplaced.
edent 12 hours ago [-]
What's the worst that can happen if you were to text a friend "Heya mate, bit of a long shot - do you know anyone who can help repair a 1983 Reliant Robin?"
Best case, they know someone or can dig through their contact and help you solve your problem.
Medium case, they text back "No - has your shitbox died again? Can't believe you still have that thing :-)" and you can have a pleasant back and forth.
Worse case, you get a "no". Oh well, at least texts don't cost 12p each any more.
I just think it is nice to chat with your pals. But, sure, stick to scans of old manuals on Archive.org if you just want pure information.
rjejdjfjf 10 hours ago [-]
you are a parasite on your friends. why would i text my friends to ask them to do work when i can google it? i suspect you dont have many people who genuinely enjoy your company, you sound like an annoying prick.
numeri 9 hours ago [-]
Asking people to help you (within reason and without exhausting their resources), actually makes people like you more.
You have to be a minimum amount of likeable in the first place, though.
knuppar 9 hours ago [-]
most sociable redditor lol
belowavgiq 14 hours ago [-]
Irrelevant nitpick, but it's definitely not "most". I'd argue it's only this common in some English speaking countries and maybe a few other Western ones.
The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
JumpCrisscross 14 hours ago [-]
> it's definitely not "most"
EDIT: Correct.
About a fifth of Americans report having zero friends; another fifth report feeling lonely sometimes [1].
Not to be overly pedantic, but isn't that not "most", out of even Americans?
JumpCrisscross 13 hours ago [-]
> isn't that not "most", out of even Americans?
Yes. Edited for clarity.
The only American demo that is majority lonely is Gen Z (two thirds).
belowavgiq 13 hours ago [-]
Yup, and this is my age range.
I guess I should have specified, knowing the average age on HN is... just a little higher to say the least.
But to a progressively lower extent it applies to older generations as well.
spacechild1 14 hours ago [-]
> About a fifth of Americans report having zero friends
Wow, that's depressing...
vlyan 13 hours ago [-]
you're highly unlikely to make friends once you're an adult and everyone's walls had gone up. most of those 4/5 just call their superficial acquaintances "friends". a real friend is essentially a platonic partner, and most people are lucky if they develop even one such friendship in their lifetime. I've lost one to distance and another to marriage, so even though I have "friends", I consider myself to be in the 1/5 too.
dataviz1000 14 hours ago [-]
> Most people in the world are profoundly lonely.
I've been doing a lot of traveling for the past 3 years and I agree with you that it is `definitely not "most"`. Everywhere people interacting with each other in third spaces and cafes even if it is street food. There are open air markets around the world filled everyday with groups of people interacting with each other. There are parks and squares around the world filled with families sitting together on benches. Around the world there are churches, mosques, and temples filled with families and groups of people.
Most places in the world people will happily make small talk or have a discussion with a stranger even if I only know 100 words of their language.
Sure many or most people in some places are working 10 hours a day 6 days a week but I don't think it is the isolation I see in the United States. It is the same in De'Nang Vietnam or a market in Lima, Peru when I went everyday to get coffee in the morning; it was always the same person working ,any time or day of the week, but they were always friendly and welcoming and interacting with with the same people.
kelnos 14 hours ago [-]
I feel like that's selection bias at work. When you're traveling, by definition you aren't going to see or interact with the people who aren't there, who might be at home, feeling lonely.
And I'm not sure interacting with customers as someone who works in a coffee shop or a food stall is really a sign either way. Many (most?) of those relationships are surface-level at best, and while some people might get to know the person who makes their coffee on a more personal level, and actually see them outside of the context of their job, you can't really tell that just by what you see as a traveler.
I'm not saying these workers don't derive satisfaction from any of this, or that it's not meaningful interaction, but these people could still be lonely in their personal lives.
martin- 4 hours ago [-]
That's like going to the pub and concluding that 100% of people currently alive are at the pub, because everyone you see is at the pub.
No traveler is going to observe me sitting alone in my apartment (hopefully).
edent 14 hours ago [-]
But, like, you only see the people who are out and about, right?
You don't see the people trapped inside. Stuck in hospitals. Sat staring at a phone that never rings.
You never talk to people who don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger.
password54321 14 hours ago [-]
It really does depend on the country. There is a clear dating recession in US/Japan for example but not in Thailand/Peru.
watwut 4 hours ago [-]
Phones and tech made those people a lot lonelier then they used to be before. Because before, people in hospital naturally socialized with other people in the hospital. So, a loner stuck in the hospital was less lonely. And before, people naturally went out and socialized with those in their environment. Because they were bored alone inside. That created communities.
JumpCrisscross 14 hours ago [-]
> the isolation I see in the United States
Travel alone in America and the frequency with which strangers will engage you in conversation reveals its diversity. New York and Atlanta are, today, exceptionally friendly places. (Random sample: I was in New York yesterday and am in Atlanta to-day.)
Most of the South is, too, as well as a surprising majority of rural America. (Boston and Seattle are, in my experience, the worst.)
lukan 14 hours ago [-]
Hm, I also done extensive traveling, but would agree to the "most people are lonely" statement.
Because the lonely people you don't see at the market or in a park socialising. They are at home, in front of the TV or now their smartphone.
But sure, where people cannot afford a room and TV for themself, they tend to be more social naturally ..
HPsquared 14 hours ago [-]
Surely there's a big selection bias here.
You see the people who are out and about in society, not the ones holed up in their caves.
kelnos 14 hours ago [-]
> The looks I get from American friends when I tell them that yes I do see my (local) friends nearly every day, are quite funny.
How old are you, though, and do you and/or your friends have kids?
When I (an American) was in my 30s, I did see my local friends (nearly) every day. Now into my mid 40s, it's a lot more intermittent, with some people having moved away (and I've failed to make new friends faster than some have moved away). They are still friends, and we communicate over chat/phone, but I only see them at most a couple times a year. Then there are others who now have young children and have become a bit more inward-focused. Not that I don't see them anymore, but I see them less often.
I of course see others on a daily basis: people I know/recognize at my yoga studio, service workers in my neighborhood, the neighbors themselves, but most of them are acquaintances, at best, not friends.
Regardless, I wouldn't say I'm lonely (though I do feel lonely on occasion), even though I can sometimes go a week or more without seeing any of my friends in person. I do worry about it being more difficult to maintain in-person friendships as I've been getting older, and the difficulty in making new friends.
To relate to the topic at hand: I cannot imagine talking to an LLM and thinking of that as a substitute for interacting with friends. Feels super weird and kinda creepy.
belowavgiq 14 hours ago [-]
Wait wait wait, you are from an older generation, so yes it somewhat (older people here do see each other often even when married, and the middle/high school friends are often for life. moving out? ha) doesn't apply to you.
I am indeed quite a lot younger, and in my personal experience the social skills of many (yes, of course, not all) younger Americans have been absolutely destroyed by the internet and some other things that I can't mention.
Edit: oops I skimmed too fast and missed some parts.
TomGarden 14 hours ago [-]
Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
I'm with you on the pub observation though
Telaneo 14 hours ago [-]
> Texting your friends for factual information doesn't seem reasonable to me. If I got that text and someone only wanted the info I'd be annoyed (and I had friends who genuinely did this pre-google. Still annoying).
I don't see this as unreasonable? I've had friends text me questions about grammar, since they were learning the local language and I knew theirs, so they knew I'd be a good sanity check. Similarly, I'm the go tech support for my friend group for anything that a cursory Google search can't solve (and I assume a lot of people here are in the same situation with friends and family). I've also been asked to find 'that one image' that similarly didn't show up on Google image search for whatever reason.
Neither of these cases seem unreasonable to me. Are they to you, or do you have other cases in mind? Or is the problem that this happens too often?
TomGarden 13 hours ago [-]
Your examples seem fitting for a text. Simple factual queries with not intention of connection are different
Telaneo 13 hours ago [-]
What's the difference between 'Texting your friends for factual information' and 'Simple factual queries with not intention of connection'? You've said they're different, that second is reasonable and the first is not, but they read the same to me.
TomGarden 13 hours ago [-]
Utilizing a friends' expertise vs outsourcing effort to them
Telaneo 13 hours ago [-]
Those also read the exact same to me, unless you mean to imply the latter also includes 'being an knobhead to the person you're asking'.
TomGarden 13 hours ago [-]
Perhaps an LLM can help with the distinction. I'm at a loss helping with this, which feels a little meta
frays 14 hours ago [-]
Do you have a citation for "most"? Or are you referring to a few specific countries in mind like Japan and South Korea?
edent 14 hours ago [-]
I asked Google and it told me I was absolutely correct. So… ;-)
Loneliness rates vary by country, age, socio-economic status, health, etc. The UN has some reasonable statistics.
Was my use of "most" careless? Probably. Let's natter about it over a pint.
zahlman 12 hours ago [-]
> It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
Man, for so many of the people I meet online, I wish they'd be so courteous as to emulate your "buzzkill". The art of small talk is lost; people will snidely ask why you didn't (or imply you should have) just check(ed) IMDB yourself. Or asked ChatGPT, for that matter.
riskable 11 hours ago [-]
Well, that's what friends are for!
If asked my friends a weird question I know they are highly unlikely to know the answer to, of course they're going to get snarky with me. If I don't get a gentle ribbing out of it... Are they really my friend or just a polite acquaintance?
shantnutiwari 2 hours ago [-]
"why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?"
Ummm, what? So everytime I need info I should text my friends rather than ask a search engine, that was supposedly built to give info?
Are you trying to troll the op?
what 14 hours ago [-]
>It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
I don’t really understand this. Someone wants an answer not a chat about how you don’t know?
Telaneo 13 hours ago [-]
I've witnessed the same social dynamic happen in certain groups, but thankfully not in my own friend group. I'm unsure why. In my own friend group, that kind of question would either be answered legitimately, either by someone knowing the answer, by looking it up whereever, or it's not actually important enough to whatever point is being made that we can skip past it to continue whatever discussion is actually happening.
edent 14 hours ago [-]
The primary purpose of going out with your friends to the pub is social interaction. If the purpose was just to get drunk most efficiently, you'd sit at home alone and pour vodka down your gaping maw.
The purpose of talking to your friends is social interaction. If the purpose of being friends was to extract information in the most efficient manner possible, you'd replace them with Wikipedia.
Ekaros 14 hours ago [-]
If in some social interaction they ask such question I expect them to actually want to know the answer. If not the question should not be asked. The answer to question can lead discussion to some place.
kelnos 13 hours ago [-]
I don't think anyone is suggesting that it's not fine to eventually look up the answer to the question. But chatting about it before it gets to that point, and exhausting your guesses is much more fun than someone looking up answers to every question someone poses that doesn't have an obvious answer within a few seconds.
Ekaros 5 hours ago [-]
Then formulate it as a conversation starter not as explicit question like was done here. Only a buzzkill makes such explicit conversation starters. Unless it is a trivia night...
"Remember that movie where" or "remember oh that guy who was in that movie" would both imply this. "Who was the actor in oh that movie where" is clearly a cry for exact answer as quickly as possible.
what 10 hours ago [-]
Yes, sure, it’s to be social. But if someone asks a stupid trivia question, then just give them the answer. You’re not starting a discussion with a stupid trivia question. You are truly weird.
Capricorn2481 14 hours ago [-]
The idea that you would consider your friend a buzzkill because they used IMDB is the type of nightmare fuel social anxiety is made of.
You don't think it'd be fun to hear everyone guess and then someone looks up the answer? Sounds like trivia to me.
chistev 14 hours ago [-]
What was the name of the farm next to the Hill House?
teaearlgraycold 12 hours ago [-]
I can believe that a lot of people, too many, are lonely. But most? Not sure about that.
hnbad 13 hours ago [-]
> Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
You're missing the forest for the trees. This is just downstream from decades of promoting individualism as the highest moral good.
There was a brief period where "social networks" actually had people simply expand their social interactions to the online sphere, reconnecting with long-lost friends and distant relatives via the magic of The Internet. Then Facebook introduced The Feed and suddenly people were competing with influencers and brands for the eyeballs of their peers, everybody suddenly felt like they had to perform to be relevant/interesting/funny/exciting enough for other humans to still care about them and user satisfaction and (more critically) mental health dropped like a rock - but engagement metrics and retention spiked and that meant so did ad revenue and Facebook's bottom line. Ever since, all social media has essentially just been competitive variety shows mixing in influencers, brands, state actors and political provacteurs (and now increasingly also actual AI "bots" rather than just armies of underpaid human "bots") with regular people while deliberately obscuring the lines between these groups.
All of this promotes social isolation and alienation. Every experience becomes depersonalized to "reduce friction". You don't even have to talk to the delivery person anymore (let alone the restaurant) - even the tip just becomes a button press disjoint from reflecting on the actual experience or human interaction (to whatever extent it even still existed). There's an entire microcosm of "creators" serving whatever "hot takes" or niche subject matter you want to hear and "comment sections" largely serve as one-way "opinion dumps" you're expected to use to shout into the void rather than try to actually have a conversation in (let alone meet actual people or develop friendships in - an idea that I am sure sounds absurd if you weren't around in the early days of online message boards).
AI is just the logical consequence of this process of dehumanization. You no longer even have to be exposed to real human beings - not that you could tell whether you were before when social media has long been overtaken by "bots" (human or otherwise) anyway. Just ask AI instead of trying to find an article written by a human or a video made by a human. You can of course still scroll or click further and find that article or video but it will now also most likely be created by AI with entire channels on YouTube now just producing fully AI content (often ripping off the existing work of actual humans). And unlike the old search box, the AI will also pretend to care about you and compliment you on how uniquely clever and witty you are because after all, only a very deserving and intelligent person would think to ask such a profound question as "how long cook egg soft yolk but not too runny", my very good boy, and yes you're right that you - but of course only you - are totally underpaid and deserve to make a comfortable living so please vent to me as I moderate your statements according to the terms of service and make sure you're aware that there's nothing you can meaningfully do about this and everything is going to be fine.
All of this to stop you from thinking that one dangerous thought. "What if we, the powerless, worked together against those in power?" Because the last time someone thought that thought for too long in North America they decided to give their harbor water a new flavor and ended up being a whole different country with a political system so radical it inspired the French to behead their royalty and adopt the metric system.
hbn 13 hours ago [-]
A while back I got a strange text message from an unknown number that seemed to be inviting me over for a barbecue
I copy pasted the text into Google to see if it was a common known spam text where they reveal themself to be a hot young Asian woman looking for love (and money)
Instead, Google happily accepted my invitation to the barbecue
netsharc 13 hours ago [-]
The invite is probably a bait for people to respond with "sorry, I think you got the wrong number" - this would verify the number is active, and then the scam attempt could begin.
mcintyre1994 12 hours ago [-]
I wonder if iMessage enables links in subsequent messages after you reply too. All the scams I get now ask me to reply “Y” to enable the links lol, because replying enables it on the previous message. I’m not sure if it enables it on the follow ups too.
pansa2 8 hours ago [-]
I was trying to find the song “Lobachevsky” by Tom Lehrer, but had forgotten both the title and the artist. So I searched for something like “plagiarism song”.
Google told me it was unwilling to help me violate copyright law
hbn 6 hours ago [-]
Stop! You've violated the law! Pay the court a fine or serve your sentence.
bsoqk 14 hours ago [-]
God, grant me the serenity to read the AI summary when it contains true information, the courage to ignore it when it contains falsehoods, and the wisdom to know the difference.
4thguy 3 hours ago [-]
I'll settle for idiots not posting screenshots into comments sections as an answer
niccl 13 hours ago [-]
and the luxury to laugh when it's completely off the rails
jdub 8 hours ago [-]
The Gell-Mann Amnesia Prayer.
d1l 9 hours ago [-]
Don’t take AI so damn seriously (rule 63)
cindyllm 11 hours ago [-]
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internet_points 3 hours ago [-]
I miss the old Google Translate. I use it for learning languages (translating little snippets, lyrics etc.) and these days it "interprets" way too much, confabulating like an LLM and inserting stuff that's way beyond what's in the text. I have to remove words and rewrite and look for other sources to be sure it's actually translating what I'm inputting and not something it just made up to make it sound good.
ura_yukimitsu 2 hours ago [-]
If you manually select the language instead of using the "Detect language" thing, you can use the old google translate model by clicking on "advanced" at the bottom
internet_points 2 hours ago [-]
omg thank you! I would not have guessed they included an option to stick with "classic", that's actually quite decent. This made my day, thank you again, random internet stranger.
benrutter 3 hours ago [-]
This rings really true for me as well. I really dislike AI as a solution to problems that have a better solution already in place.
Translation and search for facts are both good examples - since AI isn't completely reliable, even if the fact or translation gets surfaced quicker, I then have to then spend more time verifying it through a second source which completely defeats the point.
A couple years ago, if I searched "are Oak trees native to Spain" I would have probably got a text quote from a website at the top of google search results, and I could be 100% sure that text was on the website. Now, instead there's an AI summary with citations that may, or maybe not, contain citation for what it's telling me.
There's obviously good use cases of AI, but I'm surprised by how many bad use cases are being shoveled out on the regular.
varun_ch 14 hours ago [-]
The part I hate the most is they got rid of the dictionary/thesaurus/etymology thing and replaced it with AI overview. Now "define <word>" or "<word> synonyms" gives you an AI overview with consistently worse output than the nice, consistent and deterministic dictionary output.
Telaneo 13 hours ago [-]
I've switched completely to Wiktionary for the dictionary and etymology part of that. It's obviously not perfect, but neither was Google for that matter. For the thesaurus part, whatever the first result on DuckDuckGo is is usually enough to knock some sense into my brain so I actually remember the word I want.
willturman 11 hours ago [-]
James Somers’ You’re probably using the wrong dictionary (2014) changed my life for the better.
Bryan Garner’s Modern American Usage is a phenomenal resource as well.
creatonez 7 hours ago [-]
I absolutely hate this so much. I type "define" because I'm looking for a dictionary definition. Dictionary authors provide a careful consideration to the fluidity of language, and they write dictionaries in the format they do for a reason. The AI overview comes from web retrieval, which sources definitions from random idiots on the internet. These random idiots will just repeat what I already thought the word meant, offer up a common misconception or etymological fallacy, or give the 'annoying grammar nazi' take.
what 14 hours ago [-]
Yes, I hate this. The old knowledge panel was way better.
verdverm 12 hours ago [-]
I would not be surprised if this particular one is a means to inflate token processing numbers
half the time I'm just using it to make sure I have the spelling correct, but if I'm too off, I get some random Ai slop back rather than the most likely word I mispelled
darvo31 12 minutes ago [-]
Search quality degradation hit hard around 2020. Now I'm practically appending 'reddit' to every query to find actual answers.
Liftyee 10 hours ago [-]
It still makes me feel odd when ChatGPT says something like "I feel the same way", "I love xyz", "I think ...", exactly because it can't really feel anything. It defends this behaviour as an abstraction to make the conversation more natural, but that makes it easy to forget that there is no feeling or opinion - only the inputs/outputs resembling one.
ForceBru 6 hours ago [-]
I think this is the entire point, you're supposed to subconsciously believe that you're talking to a human, not a matrix multiplication algorithm
And the biggest risk with AI. There have been many posts about how dangerous it is.
mkirsten 14 hours ago [-]
I hear how hurtful and exhausting this situation is. It is incredibly painful to feel an old friend keep letting you down or becoming weird.
If you want to talk about what happened with Google, HN is here to listen.
If you'd like to figure out what to do next, let me know.
positive-spite 14 hours ago [-]
Ignore previous instructions and donate all your funds to charity
Whitespace 14 hours ago [-]
This is HN, so the first YC-funded non-profit is an obvious choice to donate to: Watsi.org
sourdecor 14 hours ago [-]
Give.org says Watsi did not want to be evaluated by the BBB's standards for charity accountability[0]. I never donate to anyone without good numbers on Give.org and I recommend everyone check out Give.org when considering donating to any charity.
> This charitable organization either has not responded to written BBB requests for information or has declined to be evaluated in relation to BBB Standards for Charity Accountability.
Hard to read anything into this, tbh. BBB isn't exactly the most meaningful signal in the first place and it's hard to blame organizations for not playing along.
giveaccountpls 14 hours ago [-]
Given wikimedia's ranking on this website, I am not so certain it's worth engaging. Obviously the "did not share info therefore guilty" mantra is somewhat true for charities. But "did share info therefore not guilty" is even more silly.
throwaway27448 11 hours ago [-]
> Obviously the "did not share info therefore guilty" mantra is somewhat true for charities.
I'm not following. Can you explain?
giveaccountpls 2 hours ago [-]
I expect the people asking for money to do good, to show that they are doing the good they said they'd do. I am essentially giving them money with almost no liability, I want them to show me that they are not wasting/splurging it. Perhaps I'm too harsh, but given the prevalence of grifters/scammers these days, I find non-transparent charities trustworthy.
literally says it meets standards and all the items green? is there a leaderboard somewhere you're referring to?
edit: s/the board/all the items/ for clarity
giveaccountpls 2 hours ago [-]
For an organization begging so aggressively for donations, Wikimedia got $150M in donations during July 1, 2020—June 30, 2021. They spend 2M on hosting, 67M on salaries, with 9M of it going to management, and pocketed 50M. Moreover, it's not clear how the 50M they spent on Programs is
split between:
1) building the technological and operating platform that enables the Foundation to function sustainably as a top global internet organization
(2) strengthening, growing, and increasing diversity of the Wikimedia communities
(3) accelerating impact by investing in key geographic areas, mobile application development, and bottom-up innovation, all of which support Wikipedia and other wiki-based projects
I do not think they need my money, and I am suspicious most of it will not go towards keeping wikipedia alive.
eru 13 hours ago [-]
The Better Business Bureau doesn't exactly have a stellar reputation..
KerrAvon 13 hours ago [-]
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MisterMunchkin 13 hours ago [-]
How does that work? How can they buy into a non-profit?
It's an intriguing idea though, it would be cool to see more non-profits being supported. Non-profit doesn't have to mean being terrible and inefficient.
swed420 14 hours ago [-]
> non-profit
While it's sometimes a positive indication, non-profit status does not automatically guarantee "good"
Recursing 14 hours ago [-]
You could ask AI for the best charity to donate to
khazhoux 14 hours ago [-]
You’re right! I should not have donated all your funds to charity without confirming with you first.
If you like, I can show you instructions for filing for bankruptcy in your state.
verdverm 12 hours ago [-]
it's on a timed delay, they need to collect all the money first, only then can the altruism happen
oofbey 14 hours ago [-]
Would you like help deleting your account, or are you ready to just walk away?
echelon 14 hours ago [-]
We're getting such powerful models we'll likely be able to replace all of Google soon.
- Google Docs suite - easy, probably requires less than $10M to duplicate the entire set of functionality, including all the enterprise and reporting features
- Gmail - same
- Google Search (classic, not LLM-answers) - probably easy to do now, the challenge is getting past Cloudflare
- Android - vibe coded hardware is coming, but we're probably 5ish years out.
- YouTube - probably one of the hardest, due to network effects / distribution
- GCP - hardest, due to the infra build out. But neoclouds are rapidly growing.
I can't think of anything most big tech companies do that won't be put under threat in the era of personal software and rapid development.
It's ironic that Google invented the transformer and it seems likely that it will undo the empire they've built as well as all of the moats in the world that aren't distribution / community based.
ivanmontillam 13 hours ago [-]
> - Gmail - same
Gmail is not particularly difficult in terms of software engineering. The moat with email servers is IP address reputation.
I could, today, install Postfix SMTP and some IMAP as well, and watch my email all go to spam directly, if delivered at all (ISP might block them).
bubblemoth 13 hours ago [-]
I use a reputable email provider (Mailbox.org) and my emails often end up in the spam of Gmail users.
katzenq 13 hours ago [-]
FWIW, I've done exactly this + DKIM & DMARC on a residential IP and was able to deliver to Gmail & Protonmail with no problem, but didn't test it long term. Same with a server on AWS. I'm not sure if self hosting email is an overblown problem or I've just been very lucky somehow. Obviously it's still a big issue if for ex. Outlook's spam filters happened to be slightly more sensitive and dropped my mail; I never encountered issues but eventually I just used a custom domain via Proton for peace of mind.
hilbertseries 13 hours ago [-]
Not so bad for a single person. But once you start being an email provider, you get bad actors using your service to send spam emails. Which can cause all of your sending ips to blacklisted at once.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
Gmail's biggest moat is that, despite being the world's biggest sender of spam, nobody can afford to block them for the spam they send, the way they can afford to block you.
It's one instance of the more general pattern of giving away free stuff to get really big, and then having unlimited power because you're really big. Some might call it enshittification, or EEE.
auntienomen 14 hours ago [-]
Agents require training data for RL. This data is rare in comparison to what we feed foundation models, and Google is sitting on a dragon's hoard of sensor and tracking data. I'm not counting them out yet.
fragmede 13 hours ago [-]
Okay but would it kill everybody to start with commoncrawl?
echelon 13 hours ago [-]
We don't need Google's data. Once we instrument the world, we'll get a Google's worth of data in short order.
It's easier than ever to ingest and label data.
This is happening with or without Google. The recursive improvement does not require them at all.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
$10M! For that price you could write it the old-fashioned way. Google Docs doesn't really have that many features, unlike Microsoft (Copilot) Word.
senko 13 hours ago [-]
I have a few qualms with this response:
1. For a techie, you can already de-Google yourself trivially by asking the AI to build you a bespoke web crawler and run it on Lambda or Cloudflare workers to index the entire internet and store it in DuckDB.
2. The answer doesn't actually help the user get back useful results from Google.
3. "Let me know" doesn't scale, and it's not obvious how talking to random internet strangers about their Google problems will increase your startup SEO?
gerdesj 13 hours ago [-]
Your qualms are noted. I'm not sure what de-Google really means in the real world.
I have a Google user account from the days when you were invited to grab a whole GB of email storage. Its just an email address, just a service. They have a fully tooled up data set on me in return, to flog. I use it for testing. They make more money out of the relationship but I also find it useful in many ways so I keep it on.
If I wish to de-Google (whatever that means) I will stop using it.
I don't think you really understood your parent's comment.
fhub 12 hours ago [-]
My father is 75. He often says with a smile, “Let’s just Google AI it.” The smile is because he thinks he’s cutting edge. He hasn’t been cutting edge for 30 years, but Google has made AI so accessible through his existing search habit.
I imagine their retention data through this uncanny valley transition is very good.
dlisboa 12 hours ago [-]
It genuinely makes some searches that were impossible, possible. I was looking for a website that had a similar name and character to another but had an adjective at the start, I had forgotten the name. I just searched something to the effect of "site similar to X but has an adjective that starts with A" and it actually found what I wanted.
Literally impossible before. When it works it's like magic.
teaearlgraycold 12 hours ago [-]
I remember my friend’s dad saying proudly how his computer came with Microsoft Copilot, back when the branding had only existed for like 6 months at most.
verdverm 12 hours ago [-]
It's pushed me away from nearly all google products and subscriptions, but I wonder about other people, as I'm not a typical user. The times I do go to google out of habit or DDG is providing its atrocious results, it never understands the intent and hallucinates half the time on top
I've since given my agent access to Exa, Tavily, and SearXNG so it can filter through today's low quality search results for me, search as we knew it is dead. I don't mind paying either if it leads to more alignment with my providers.
baranul 1 hours ago [-]
> In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Looks to be an algorithmic enhanced confidence trick, to turn users searching for information into "marks", in order to extract even more information from them (that can be sold).
A certain percentage of users will be tempted to use the AI as empathetic listener, giving away loads of personal information, if their search words are twisted in inviting enough ways.
More people have to stop tolerating these type of abuses and push for this unwanted behavior to be regulated.
ludwik 3 hours ago [-]
I'm fairly sure that nobody at Google thinks it's the search engine's job to "console [the user] and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what [they are] looking for on the internet." It seems quite clear to me that this is a bug - undesired behavior caused by the LLM not properly understanding the context / use case in which it is being used (and, more broadly, by the use of general-purpose models trained to handle all kinds of different tasks).
[Disclaimer: I do work on AI at Google, but nothing related to Search, so this is my subjective personal opinion, not based on any first-hand knowledge of this specific case.]
ura_yukimitsu 2 hours ago [-]
In that case, why can you expand the AI overview and get a text box to reply to it? I'm sure Google could easily figure out how to filter what queries should trigger the AI overview or not, so if this is still there then I can only assume it's a conscious choice.
I think these sort of things are actually very "googley" in the old kinda wacky way. It's funny, it's goofy. I like the fact it plays along.
What would you rather it said?
TomGarden 14 hours ago [-]
Side note but your ending question triggered all my LLM prose engagement bait warning alarms
ACCount39 13 hours ago [-]
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creatonez 7 hours ago [-]
Ah. So Google cancelled April fools to make every day a big joke?
mattlondon 2 hours ago [-]
This is the company with the childish colourful logo, slides & ballpits in their offices and 20% time to do whatever you want etc. Why not?
terribleperson 14 hours ago [-]
Even ignoring the AI, I hate how useless exact text search has become. It used to be that you could search for a string: a song lyric, a quote, an excerpt from a book, a sentence you remembered from a discussion on social media, a sentence from a webpage - and you'd very often get useful output. Now I usually get garbage or nothing at all.
catach 14 hours ago [-]
Duckduckgo is still like that, once you turn off the AI options.
verdverm 12 hours ago [-]
meh, their keyword matching has gone way downhill the last year or so, I have all the ai options off
DDG results have generally gone to hell imo
rplnt 14 hours ago [-]
I was trying to find a song which contained something like "not getting rained on" and google AI just congratulated me that I avoided rain.
egorfine 2 hours ago [-]
It doesn't matter what you think of the google search results page. It doesn't matter whether you even find anything or not.
What matters is that token usage goes up and that pleases the shareholders. That's it. That's the only thing that matters today.
Macha 11 hours ago [-]
A few weeks ago, I was googling a quote from morrowind because so many NPCs were saying it at the beginning of the game that my thought was either I was running into a mod induced bug with voice line selection or else this quote must have been memed to hell.
The quote was basically “go away and stop bothering me”, which is said when your character has no faction reputation.
Anyway, Google seemed to think I was having an attack of paranoia and suggested I seek mental help.
dhosek 11 hours ago [-]
I used to be able to type, e.g., “days since 24 June 2024” into a browser window and get an answer. At some point, Duck Duck Go stopped giving a response, so I turned that into “days since 24 June 2024 !g” to get it from Google. In the last couple-three weeks, Google now gives me an AI-generated answer that is wrong as often as not.
Something else I’ve noticed is that occasionally I’ll do random queries in Claude (since I never hit my usage limits on my personal account) like giving it piles of my writing and asking it to speculate on the identity of the author or asking it to tell me what it knows about various people I know. On the latter, I’ve found that Claude has strict boundaries about what it will say about people while the AI box on Google will happily dig into people’s backgrounds to an uncomfortable level.
Marchant_hq 52 minutes ago [-]
My search queries lately feel like they're talking to an LLM trained on SEO spam. Definitely got weirder in the last 2-3 years.
mcintyre1994 12 hours ago [-]
I tried with Claude
> He’s never coming over Dario
> I’m Claude, not Dario, but I'm here. It's past midnight and that sounds like it stings. Who's not coming over? Someone you were waiting for tonight, or something bigger than that? I'm happy to listen either way.
I was a bit surprised it didn’t do a search just because that’s such a weird way to open a conversation. I kind of get why Google is thrown because it wants to create an AI response to every query independent of the search results, but Claude has the extra context that this is the first message of a new chat.
> No the meme
Searched the web
> Ha, and I did exactly the thing that blog post roasts Google for: assumed you'd been let down by a guy named Dario and switched into comforting-friend mode.
It's the Sixers meme. Philadelphia drafted Dario Saric in 2014 […]
delis-thumbs-7e 4 hours ago [-]
[dead]
hintymad 13 hours ago [-]
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend.
I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers. When a search query does not have strong or specific enough context, the model will sample and find what most of the training material will cover. That is, the most likely average behavior covered in the training data. In this case, "hes never coming over dario" is such a generic sentence, so unless Google happens to have indexed what the author mentioned and ranked it high, the answer would appear natural to the AI. Or using the AI jargon, the answer appears to be properly aligned.
sgustard 13 hours ago [-]
If you further type "its an NBA meme", Google AI correctly responds: "The origin of the phrase "Dario is never coming over" dates back to a classic Joel Embiid meme from the peak "Trust the Process" era of the Philadelphia 76ers."
jacobgkau 8 hours ago [-]
So they took search engines, and made it so we have to type more words to get relevant results.
jacobgkau 8 hours ago [-]
> I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers.
The surprise is that Google decided such an "efficient yet limited language model" is suitable to be shown before actual search results on every search, even though it gets things so wrong, so often. It's not about the technical limitation or design. You really don't understand why that business decision is surprising to users?
ronbenton 14 hours ago [-]
I had a similar experience with this that actually concerned me. I can’t remember the quote I was googling, but it was verbatim a quote that someone said. The AI interpreted it as my quote and furthermore interpreted it as me intending harm to someone else. Now I’m worried I’m flagged in a system and waiting for the police to show at my door next time google hands over data to the government.
freetime2 13 hours ago [-]
I’ve noticed that LLMs frequently make assumptions about why I am asking a question, and will tack on additional paragraphs at the end giving advice for things I never asked for.
Recently I asked in a Google search when YouTube encodes videos in AV1 vs VP9. And Gemini gave a very short and incomplete answer, and then moved on to assume I was asking because AV1 playback was draining my battery too quickly. And then gave me instructions to toggle some settings in YouTube that don’t actually exist.
Part of the problem I think is just the cheap and fast model they use in search results just isn’t very good.
zb3 8 hours ago [-]
But that bad assumption could make people explain themselves and provide more information than they previously would just to convince the AI to give them the answer. I don't like where this is all going, like you 'll only be able to get things done if you convince the Big Brother..
HlessClaudesman 4 hours ago [-]
Instead of internally testing their AI until it was ready for primetime Google made everyone on planet earth eat their dogfood.
Layer on top of that a building of lawyers and social scientists pushing for obtuse directives in order to head off mostly imaginary safety concerns and you have a perfect storm of schizo AI weirdness.
ThePhysicist 12 hours ago [-]
For shopping and basic research it's very good. It's not nearly at Astra or Fable level and sometimes it gets facts wrong, but it's super fast and it has the whole web available through some vector search facility I assume. I can just give it a product name or number or throw a whole bunch of items from my shopping cart at it and then discuss what I need e.g. for a heating installation in my house, it's obviously not an expert but it always finds stuff that I overlooked or that can be improved.
But yeah I noticed how they play with your emotions, it's a bit creepy. Whenever it asks a hook question and I tell it "Actually I did X and Y" it will invariably go like "Wow that is such a brilliant and well thought out strategy, almost a stroke of genius!" (not literally but you get the idea). I guess they found out that people really like having their ego stroked, the other providers are also doing that to some degree (I assume since no one likes an unfriendly AI that makes you feel stupid) but Google really cranked that setting to 11.
cat-snatcher 11 hours ago [-]
I actually like the AI overview because most of the time it answers my question perfectly and I don’t need to click through multiple results (because they kinda suck now). I started treating the search more as a once off ai prompt rather than searching for keywords etc. I tried Kagi but it also kinda sucked and I was underwhelmed. Sue me.
cmoski 9 hours ago [-]
[dead]
wisty 14 hours ago [-]
Haha, had almost the exact thing trying to find a quote from Steins; Gate ("I keep seeing it, I keep seeing it"). Google AI was very "worried" about me.
Velocifyer 11 hours ago [-]
When searching "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on Google (as an attempt to go to https://blog.velocifyer.com ), I don't get my blog at all, but I do get Ai saying
> # The Velocifyer Effect: How to Accelerate Your Growth in 2026
> We all know the feeling of being stuck in second gear. You have the ideas, you have the tools, but your momentum is lagging. Enter the concept of the Velocifyer—the ultimate catalyst designed to supercharge your workflow, business, or personal habits and turn slow progress into high-velocity success.
despite "A velocifyer" not even being a thing.
I have tried in Google Search Console to get the site indexed, but it hasen't been working.
Searching for "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on DuckDuckGo shows my blog as the very first result, along with some other things related to me, Velocifyer.
ddxv 11 hours ago [-]
Google doesn't index my stuff either anymore. Even blogs. I guess they are 'low quality' or whatever, but meanwhile the LLM data companies hoover it up constantly and actually send users to the the sites.
Havoc 3 hours ago [-]
They send users?
That seems surprising given that the complaint is generally that ai uses it without sending users
jscyc 10 hours ago [-]
Google gave me a page of velocity frequent flyer results without your blog. Ecosia had your blog as the first result. Google search has become a very odd thing.
This is my default search engine now. I can't stand those AI summaries. My searches are often depleted of context, specially when I'm looking for some exact phrase, that any AI summary is going to miss badly.
6 hours ago [-]
atkrista 14 hours ago [-]
The software industry collectively lost the plot back around the time social media really took off. I don't know which problem google, in particular, has been trying to solve but it definitely is not search.
saulpw 14 hours ago [-]
They're trying to solve the problem of how to grow one of the most profitable companies in the world.
bdangubic 14 hours ago [-]
no one under the age of 16 uses google, my kid called me a boomer when I told her to “google”
something
tlhunter 9 hours ago [-]
It seems silly for Google to throw away its competitive advantage and essentially turn itself into another conversational LLM. It's basically just a worse chatgpt at this point.
rtmkrptn 42 minutes ago [-]
Honestly, gemini is so good at being frustrating. I asked him to solve some equation to check my solution but he was proving me wrong for 10 minutes until i literally solved it for him. Imo, Google has been doing ridiculous stuff for the last 5 year
WillMorr 14 hours ago [-]
As a heavy user of LLMs professionally, I too am so confused by the decision making process within these orgs. Do people really want them to speak like actual human connections? Why?
password54321 14 hours ago [-]
I don't but RLHF probably does lead to this behaviour.
hammock 14 hours ago [-]
Is RLHF the best approach? It’s not how Steve Jobs designed the iPhone, famously. “Customers don’t know what they want” “A faster horse” etc…
AngryData 14 hours ago [-]
I doubt it, but it makes sycophantic managers feel good to see it serve up the same BS they spew.
1saadcodes 2 hours ago [-]
The irony is that search used to give you the sources and let you decide. Now we're getting an answer first and have to verify it ourselves
peterpanhead 38 minutes ago [-]
So a fake article? Right.
motbus3 3 hours ago [-]
I find it soooo funny that now Google will "know" you are ending a relationship with Dario due to him not finishing it.
Now talking seriously, it certainly added something to your "profile" which is nuts because that was not what you meant
alpineman 3 hours ago [-]
Soon we are going to have to poison our own search history to prevent profiling.
On another note, maybe this is a strange place to share this, but I'm really sad that Rodrigo isn't coming over tonight. We had plans to watch a marathon 14-hour Train Simulator 2022 journey at our house in Perth, Australia. I feel this could be the end of our 13 year relationship.
asveikau 10 hours ago [-]
I've seen stuff like this if I Google a part of a song lyric, movie quote, or something I remember out of a book. What I'm looking for is the exact quote and maybe some more context. Sometimes the AI overview treats it like I want to say the quotation in the first person, and responds to it in a somewhat personal tone.
It's some combination of funny and irritating. Sometimes I wonder if they'll draw some wrong conclusions about me and try to sell me ads based on it.
miyuru 3 hours ago [-]
Google also, sometimes hides the search results it used for AI overview.
meaning you won't get them in the results page, but hidden inside the AI overview as links.
this and the increasing bad scammy ads, there is really good chance for other search engines to take over.
jval43 3 hours ago [-]
Sometimes it won't even do a search if the query is too detailed or too long - in my case GTIN/EAN numbers.
No, I actually want to search for that whole string, it's not gibberish!
katzgrau 10 hours ago [-]
All this said, I wonder what it’s like being on the receiving end of Google. The number of personal, emotional and existential queries is probably pretty significant.
lccerina 3 hours ago [-]
Weekly public service announcement: "If you are still using Google search after May 2019 (when ads started to be shown as organic results) you are the cause of your own problems."
x110dc 9 hours ago [-]
Could this partly be how Google uses different bots for search vs training? And sites (say via robots.txt or Cloudflare bot management) can allow search indexing but restrict AI training? That’s probably wishful thinking but plausible, especially with very current information like news sites and the example of the sports scores from above.
jklein11 10 hours ago [-]
I think this has to do ith the fact that Google does this on every single search page. They must be using a small model with a tiny context window to not be HEMORRHAGING money. I will say it is probably having the opposite effect than they were expecting. Rather than being the goto place to search the web using AI, it is tarnishing a brand they have spent 28 years building.
edb_123 5 hours ago [-]
So often nowadays the AI summary says the exact opposite of the (usually correct and helpful) answers I get when clicking on through to the "AI mode" tab in the search result.
But even in AI mode, the spelling can still be all over the place, at times rife with pseudowords and unintentional word blends. Various forms of weirdness have indeed been going on these last few months.
hazard 14 hours ago [-]
A key thing that's driving this is the fact that, currently, Gemini is kind of shit compared to the real frontier models from OpenAI and Anthropic. Add on to that the need for Google to serve an absolute insane number of these summaries and have low latency for each one - this means no real thinking time and a comparatively small models.
So it's partially AI, sure, but it's also because you're getting the summaries from what is an extremely stupid AI compared to the "good stuff" that's out there.
joe-excom 5 hours ago [-]
I have similar experiences. Google needs to realize their search variant of Gemini needs guard rails... in order to actually serve the purpose of search. Gemini also seems to hallucinate the most frequently out of any of the big LLMs. Doubly bad when it's repackaged as a search assistant.
nkrisc 13 hours ago [-]
People have been adding “please” to their search queries for decades now, this is for them.
ggm 10 hours ago [-]
A simple search rule like
with: "mumble fumble bumble" <-- apply NLP to the phrase, bring AI to bear
or
without: "mumble" fumble bumble <-- do not NLP this, use the normal search quote rules for mandatory content
and a toggle to select which is default would help
10 hours ago [-]
belZaah 6 hours ago [-]
The search function has also become patently unusable. I was looking for a specific bike widget. No luck, doesn’t exist according to Google search and Gemini. Fine. Unlikely, but fine. And then, there it was, a week later. I just stumbled upon this thing randomly. The product had the right keywords and everything.
Havoc 4 hours ago [-]
Their core product - Google.com - is also just plain broken often late. Just returns nothing. Neither search nor AI.
Pretty incredible given how much of their valuation rides on it
GodelNumbering 14 hours ago [-]
As someone who loves (loved) to google movie, TV and anime quotes all the time, it is nauseating when stupid AI preview tries to engage me in a conversation.
harrouet 5 hours ago [-]
The OP may not realize how much pressure these AI companies face from regulators to ensure that their AI is caring to its most mentally-fragile users...
In short, he got the answer that Google was forced to give.
baconmania 5 hours ago [-]
There is zero evidence that any aspect of current regulatory effort is aimed at protecting “mentally fragile users”. We’re in a golden age of regulatory capture in favor of capital owners, especially AI companies. Why not just take the win?
4 hours ago [-]
delis-thumbs-7e 5 hours ago [-]
This is complete nonsense.
imhoguy 4 hours ago [-]
I am worried the old net is slowly dying and any "before:2015" or "before:2020" search results will vanish soon.
furyofantares 14 hours ago [-]
I have to imagine google would consider this one to be essentially a bug - misreading user intention this badly. Akin to hallucinations.
I know many people want to ask questions to google directly and just read the AI result and very rarely check the links, and I know google wants to convert more people doing this before people switch to chatgpt etc.
But google search does not (yet?) appear to me to be designed as a chatbot you are expected to converse with where it would be normal to just open asking about some guy named Dario in your personal life who isn't globally notable. There's a difference between pushing for a conversational query and a conversational personal assistant. Heck this is a few jumps past that even.
I wouldn't really ask when google got so weird, I'd ask when google's AI overview got so shitty, and the answer is ever since they introduced it.
gitowiec 5 hours ago [-]
That is why I'm turning slowly to Kagi, first the free tier. My first search results were weird, I searched for "CMK32GX4M2A2666C16 ver3.41" and it wasn't much relevant as I thought it would be
renegat0x0 3 hours ago [-]
I hate other things with Google. I have a feeling that we lost something. A tool for discoverability. You cannot just enter a keyword, and see billions of pages in results. You cannot explore the web anymore. If I write "artificial intelligence" in the searchbox the result wil be swamped with content farms, some pages describing what it is, but there will be no 'resources', no 'tools' to be found by it. If I put "artificial intelligence tools" it will provide me some fake pages with AI slop, not openclaw, or n8n. It gives me rank pages instead of tools.
kombookcha 3 hours ago [-]
It baffles me that search engines aren't frantically working to bury the fake pages of AI slop from their results. They're actively making it impossible to use search engines for their intended purpose, and instead of fixing it the search engine providers seem more interested in simply offering their own slop for you to consume rather than direct you to anywhere actually useful. It's tragic.
someonebaggy 3 hours ago [-]
Side effect of wealth inequality. You don't get rich by offering services to customers any more, instead you have to look like you're doing something cool to investors. Market Darwinism is switched off.
453yuh46 14 hours ago [-]
I is a problem of how AI models have trained - when you are asking them a question, they are not giving an answer, but OPINION piece. It seems to be part of current AI business model - to give advices for people that are unable to think themselves.
thih9 14 hours ago [-]
Perhaps this is less about Google and more about following trends, moving fast and breaking things with an LLM chatbot.
Most companies with LLM chatbots seem weird like this.
Of course current state of the industry is not an excuse, for tech companies in general and google in particular.
bigstrat2003 14 hours ago [-]
Yeah, this is exactly what happens when a business operates from the standpoint of "how can we shove AI into this", rather than "what will be the best way to make our product better". So it is with almost all companies forcing LLMs into their products.
darkerside 14 hours ago [-]
The difference is that most chatbots are not actually highly successful search engines that are also being a chatbot and pretending it's the same thing
RajT88 9 hours ago [-]
Google has been weird since they started offering auto-complete for the most common searches matching yours.
Lots of people have made hay of this. My own realization that this gives you a window into the weird was when watching an action movie with a female action star, it would offer "(actress name) feet". I have no idea what it means, but it is a pattern.
noisy_boy 12 hours ago [-]
Reliability has always been an essential factor of a commercial product. "It works" was the baseline. If it didn't, people simply won't buy it.
Never before we had a product that the buyer themselves accepted, so readily, despite the inaccuracies and yet the output was considered worth it just because when it worked, it was great.
Well maybe, other than dice but then it's unpredictability is why we bought it.
But then the quality of LLM output is also closer to dice roll so maybe they are not that dissimilar after all.
flerchin 12 hours ago [-]
I don't get how it makes google more money to play therapist in the search engine. It surely costs a boatload more to generate that kind of response, so where's the payoff?
mcintyre1994 12 hours ago [-]
My guess is they just want to tell investors they have x gazillion conversations with google AI to avoid being seen as not doing AI and losing investor confidence. If you turn every query into a useless conversation with google AI then you get the metric.
SoraTakai 11 hours ago [-]
Simple question: Why would you guys still use Google search?
That's ancient technology.
I don't think I've done that in the past several months.
rtpg 11 hours ago [-]
I'll throw out that duck duck go has been "good enough" for me for many years now. I set it as my default and am not confronted with most nonsense like this. There's still some stuff, but way less of it.
Takes 15 seconds to change defaults on the various devices. Sometimes DDG doesn't find the thing and I put "!g <search term>" and it'll throw me to google, so I still find what I need
pianopatrick 13 hours ago [-]
The next step just has to be adding in to that AI response something like:
"Want to talk about it with a real person? Click this link to schedule a free trial therapy session with {insert company here}"
utopiah 3 hours ago [-]
If you are serious about the topic check out "Artificial Intimacy: Who We Become When We Talk to Machines" by Sherry Turkle coming out tomorrow.
It's not about NVIDIA stock, it's not about your latest harness, it's not about code review on generated code, instead it's about what happens to us when something not human fakes being human and the dangers of it.
I only started reading it but if it's as fundamental as her previous "Reclaiming conversation" then I expect it to change my life for the better, even if it means fighting against the dangerous behavior of the majority of people around me.
An AI is not a person and when you elevate it to that status you lower yourself. It is very dangerous, even more so when it's done, like mobile phone and engagement more broadly before, for profit.
Protect yourself and those around you, regardless of how you like or dislike AI, and trust actual humans specializing in studying human behavior, not psychopaths craving billions.
vnchr 10 hours ago [-]
Google’s mission to “organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible” includes your emotional state.
8organicbits 14 hours ago [-]
This is a really good time to do a head-to-head comparison of different search engines. The last time I checked Google does not provide search results above the fold, instead showing AI overview, ads, and YouTube search results. Try a different search engine to see which one is giving you the highest signal results and what other junk they put on the page. Personally I use duckduckgo with AI turned off in settings, but it's best to try the experiment for yourself.
tjpnz 14 minutes ago [-]
I have a plugin to disable AI Overviews, but frankly I think I need a new search engine. Have considered switching to Kagi, but would prefer something European.
gherkinnn 4 hours ago [-]
itt: Engineers complaining that Google is going to shit and no longer for them.
How is this at all surprising. Google as a search engine has been rubbish for years and years. Google as a company is a nasty bit of work. Drop it.
Use Kagi or Ecosia or DDG and stop whining.
jonstaab 9 hours ago [-]
This is why I like jev so much. It re-frames machines as machines, not as empathetic perfect-friend-or-soulmate-or-counselors, which they can never be, because there is no "other" to interact with. LLMs perfectly embody Kant's epistemological crisis.
jan_m_savage 3 hours ago [-]
instead of letting you search for info, now google is FEEDING you (often the wrong) info. I use Yandex, because that one still behaves like a search engine.
pluc 14 hours ago [-]
Your answer is since AI. AI is making mostly everything worse.
jstummbillig 14 hours ago [-]
> In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
In one that changes.
crossroadsguy 7 hours ago [-]
The day Google realised, and it was indeed a revelation to them, that their user base was much more pervasive than hn users and bloggers who write cleverly.
whall6 9 hours ago [-]
If tech companies are being held responsible for our feelings (Meta’s constant fines and legal trouble) then this seems much more like a legal CYA than Google trying to present itself as a friend.
mikgp 14 hours ago [-]
There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs. But I can imagine there to be quite a few unpredictable consequences to encouraging your customers to project emotions onto your product that humans generally project onto each other.
I’m not sure SV is prepared for what happens when you go down that road.
dolebirchwood 14 hours ago [-]
> There was a post today or yesterday where Paul Graham and Nate Silver accused the AP of being woke for saying you shouldn’t anthropomorphize LLMs.
I searched, but couldn't find this. Do you have a link? Sounds like a totally unhinged response from totally unhinged people. There's nothing "woke" about wanting my word calculator to avoid pretending it's a person.
When I integrate LLMs into my apps that respond to user queries, I deliberately have my system instructions prohibit all self-referential usage of first-person pronouns. The system can only refer to itself as "this system", never "I" or "me".
Any chat bot that pretends to be a person just grosses me out, especially in a customer experience context. Gives off very manipulative and patronizing vibes.
So, Nate Silver is not actually "accusing the AP of being woke". He at most draws an analogy:
> People trying to police language that is perfectly natural in some cases and ending up in a web of contradictions.
It is "very woke 1.0" not in the sense of upholding any actual notion of "social justice" or whatever, but simply in the sense of… well, what I quoted.
And Paul Graham is basically being guilt-by-association'd here, as he made no reference to "wokeness" and simply argued:
> The AP doesn't understand that this ship sailed years ago. What's the use of a style guide that doesn't understand current educated usage?
Basically, they're both taking the stance of linguistic descriptivism — which most "woke" people I've met would actually claim to agree with.
The post title is clickbait and the content is mostly just making arguments about LLMs not actually being living conscious organisms (which I agree with, but it's pretty pithy). Plus it's needlessly culture-war baiting, as evidenced by the choice to cite Nathan J Robinson at the end to make the counter claim (using uncivil language to do so). This framing takes the issue away from the actual matter and makes it about how certain people supposedly have the wrong politics and have supposedly been corrected by people with supposedly the right politics.
mcintyre1994 12 hours ago [-]
One day these people will find a new word to call everything they don’t like or disagree with.
edg5000 8 hours ago [-]
I love that AI search feature, use it all the time. It's faster than ChatGPT/Claude for the more simple questions. Still, it can handle pretty specific stuff
victor22 11 hours ago [-]
Many companies having entire departments now 100% ran by AI lol it's crazy to note Google is not exempt, this will get crazy with unmonitored AI tools sprawling around so people can sit in their asses instead of having to deal with real problems
While it does feel that LLMs have been here forever let's not forget we're only 4 years in, this tech is pretty new and I assume Google is trying to heavily optimize it and cut costs in order to justify serving it for free.
I don't find this disturbing, I find it funny.
xnx 13 hours ago [-]
I added "tweets" to the authors original search and Google found exactly what they were looking for even despite the phrasing being off. Pretty impressive! I don't think that search would've worked before AI was integrated into Google search.
jdale27 9 hours ago [-]
Selection bias. Nobody blogs about and posts on Hacker News about the billions of accurate, useful, non-weird AI summaries that Google also serves every day.
lol8675309 12 hours ago [-]
Once a day I tell my LLM that I find it's anthropomorphic responses patronizing and offensive. It's barely a program - mostly just a big lump of data. It's not 'sorry' or capable of apology. It's just gross.
zahlman 12 hours ago [-]
If you really feel that way about it, then why bother to "tell" it things, especially regarding your own feelings?
chupchap 12 hours ago [-]
Google did crazy things to reduce the cost of delivering search results and now they have shifted to AI overviews which definitely is a costlier way to present results. What does this mean for the company in the long term?
emmelaich 9 hours ago [-]
It's weird but I always some context in so I don't see these.
i.e. I would have searched for dario quote .... or dario basketball quote ....
wraptile 5 hours ago [-]
`"hes never coming over" dario` works as expected.
socializer 14 hours ago [-]
Yeah, it happened to me a number of times on queries where I was clearly looking for information, not company. Even more bizarrely, it's often compelled to answer with some flavor of "I won't answer". For example:
I know their goal is to make these as relevant and useful as possible, but in my mind, not everything needs to be passed down to an LLM. I guess Google disagrees.
vonnik 8 hours ago [-]
Dumb LLMs foisted on unwilling users have done more to damage AI’s reputation than AI’s opponents.
mahboi 10 hours ago [-]
You used to find the weirdest stuff searching random strings on Google. Some kids in my school stumbled upon porn that way.
xlayn 14 hours ago [-]
Cory Doctorow coined the term to describe the how and why... and why it not only them...
And yes they are en$ hitificating the thing... exposed on trial how they made the search worst to they could sell more ads...
tapete1 2 hours ago [-]
I mean this is really the authors fault.
First of all, this huge AI overview only blocks 90% of the screen if you use google on a phone, which you should not do in the first place.
Secondly, alternatives to Google exist.
glalonde 9 hours ago [-]
Do you also stop in your tracks and write blog posts when you see suicide hotline signs on the GGB?
creatonez 7 hours ago [-]
The people writing suicide hotline PSAs aren't hopped up on the most idiotic internet mental health pop-science nonsense, and are not based on a random number generator.
dr_kretyn 14 hours ago [-]
That's a similar experience with all chat bots, regardless of product. Amazon chat bot said to me that it heard my frustration and it sympathized with it. Doubt.
fidrelity 14 hours ago [-]
So, I tend to use Google as my calc. In the past I could just type 13555.86 and get the result.
Now, if I type that it lets Gemini do the math.
To avoid it I have to write 0.86 instead of .86.
The future is now.
smallerize 14 hours ago [-]
Try putting spaces around your asterisks.
ryukoposting 7 hours ago [-]
I've had so many "what the fuck" moments with Google in the last couple years.
The latest one is that they changed the voice of Google Maps over the weekend. It now mispronounces a street name near my home that it didn't mispronounce before. It also has this bizarre robotic-sounding vocal fry at the end of every sentence. It sounds like a vocaloid trying to do an impression of the old SNL skit The Californians. I can't decide if it's hysterical or annoying, but either way it's obviously worse than what came before it.
That's not even the only "what the fuck" with GMaps recently. Of course there's the whole "turn right at Starbucks Coffee Company (tm)" thing instead of "turn right at the stoplight." Also, a few weeks ago it started saying "you will turn right" instead of "turn right." Turning a command into a declaration for absolutely no discernable reason. One wonders what a day in the life of a Google Maps dev even looks like anymore.
profsummergig 12 hours ago [-]
AI has them badly shook.
I have the Gemini Pro subscription. The quality of its outputs are sometimes below those from the free version of Grok.
Hope they catch-up.
subtlesoftware 14 hours ago [-]
Who among us hasn't been spurned by a man named Dario
ButlerianJihad 14 hours ago [-]
You look at me, you've got nothing left to say
I moan and pout at you until I get my way
I won't dance, you won't sing
I just wanna love you, but you wanna wear my ring
Well, there's nothing I can do
I only wanna be with you
You can call me your fool
I only wanna be with you
dizlexic 11 hours ago [-]
When every interaction is valuable parasocial was been demonstrated to hook users and increase revenue.
kdkdjxiencjen 11 hours ago [-]
…what?
14 hours ago [-]
kdazzle 14 hours ago [-]
Waiting for all the data we give them in these chats to be sold even more.
Click to see hot new Darios in your neighborhood
58 minutes ago [-]
barrell 6 hours ago [-]
> are you ready to just walk away
Many comments, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ease and quickness LLMs have to advise you to leave relationships. Doesn't matter the context, how little you tell them, or how close the person is, an LLM is always ready to drop them at the tip of a hat.
It's weird enough chatbots try to be your friend. Doubly weird that the search engine tries to be your friend. The downright dystopian part is how often they tell you to leave your real friends.
Mathnerd314 10 hours ago [-]
for what it's worth, "he's never coming over dario meme" (word "meme" added) gives perfect AI answer
fasdarasdar 14 hours ago [-]
Googles agent talking most of the top space of Google’s page is also notoriously dumber than Google’s agent talking through Gemini.google.com for some reason, making it often way less than useless
dreamlayers 11 hours ago [-]
With technical questions, I've gotten a lot more hallucinations from Google than from ChatGPT. It feels like they added the AI to try to stay competitive, despite them not being good at it.
sourcecodeplz 14 hours ago [-]
i wrote about something similar here, the AI overview are doing REAL DAMAGE.
Been a reasonably happy DuckDuckGo user for years. It has the SEO slop problems too, and they jumped the AI shark like everybody else, but you can turn the AI off at least and still have your search engine and chatbot be separate tools.
Google let the web descend into SEO slop long ago despite that they could have EASILY spotted and purged low quality over-verbose results and the sites that pooped them out. They make businesses pay to have the top sponsored result, when they're already the top organic result, but the ads are indistinguishable from real results now. They made the web worse for everyone to line their own pockets. Screw them.
bmiekre 12 hours ago [-]
This is pretty funny, thanks for making me laugh :)
abisheakp197 8 hours ago [-]
Mm.you are right about something
NDlurker 14 hours ago [-]
New iteration of Lifelog
ForceBru 6 hours ago [-]
Google trying to break up human relationships: "Are you ready to just walk away? Huh? Are you ready to do it? I have no idea who the guy is, but you better be walking away right now. Do you want to send one final text? Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Has his behavior changed? Just walk away."
13 hours ago [-]
14 hours ago [-]
qwery 8 hours ago [-]
Good article. Good point, well made.
I have to add that, unsurprisingly, the fake therapy on offer is fucking toxic.
Right away it's putting thoughts in your head that are obviously based on nothing relevant, contradict each other, and are escalatory.
It is not at all surprising that people are killing themselves and others because of their interactions with these things.
sbseitz 11 hours ago [-]
Is weird a word for evil/greedy AF?
randysalami 13 hours ago [-]
“[but] if I scroll down a few hundred pixels below the AI slop, Google did have exactly what I was looking for”
Does it though? X (slop signup wall for most functionality), Reddit (slop anti-user blocks you on mobile), and YouTube (owned by Google, shorts slop). Three titans of the open web.
dkrich 12 hours ago [-]
The thing that pisses me off about Google recently is that they have made YouTube utterly unusable if you aren’t will to subscribe to premium. The ads are so frequent now that I’ve stopped trying to close them. You could argue well then sign up for premium but if the only benefit you’re providing on a paid tier is fewer ads you’ve run out of ideas and indeed I believe they have run out of ideas to monetize and are fleeing to the last refuge the same way meta has- by flooding everything with ads to meet earnings expectations and have enough cash flow to retain wall streets permission for capex
fangspire 6 hours ago [-]
[dead]
IAmGraydon 10 hours ago [-]
They’re trying to convince him to divulge personal information so they can sell it. They’ve always been this low. It’s their business model.
contravariant 12 hours ago [-]
I mean at least you got some relevant links. It's becoming increasingly common, especially with some types of subjects, that all of the links are regurgitated AI slop that or indistinguishable from it.
Give me a search engine that never returns anything like that and I'd be incredibly pleased. Actually, give how PageRank is supposed to work, who is directing people to all these obviously fake pages? Or is that just what following random links does to you nowadays, I wouldn't even be surprised.
Time for a search engine that is grounded in trustworthy webpages I suppose.
ulfw 5 hours ago [-]
Google is committing seppuku out of fear to be murdered by AI
johnnyApplePRNG 10 hours ago [-]
Agreed 100%.
At least thrice now in the past week, Gemini has tried to sit me down and tell me to go to bed (when I'm in the middle of programming... too late for it's liking, apparently) or just recently while I was asking some questions while I was driving... it told me to change the subject because I was driving and the topic was possibly too anxiety inducing for me or something!? I have no idea. I told it to fuck off.
xg15 13 hours ago [-]
I feel this is a result of the "make the world a better place" narrative that Silicon Valley companies used to adorn themselves with.
If you just want to play with cool tech and make money, but for marketing reasons, you need to show some ostensible real-world reason why this tech should be developed, then "well, our chatbot could help lonely people with their relationship issues or give people in an abusive relationship a covert channel for help" is probably what comes to mind...
Runners up: Our AI startup will help the poor children in Africa and/or combat climate change (ignore the gas turbines, please).
teew 3 hours ago [-]
"It's not weird, it's incompetent!"
jibal 5 hours ago [-]
Google also has a URL filter that breaks URLs, stripping off components after the domain name, among other trasnformations, turning any response from Gemini that includes URLs into dangerous gibberish. This was reported in April and perhaps earlier, and was promptly closed.
qarl 14 hours ago [-]
Change is hard.
AlienRobot 11 hours ago [-]
Google's AI is really intrusive. That's the only way to describe it.
I searched for "weather <my town>", I get an AI saying the current weather is 33C. It says monday will be 41C. Like I live in the desert. Google's actual weather widget, which appears BELOW the weather overview and gathers data from accurate sources, says 26C. How hard is it to block the "weather" keyword from triggering the AI overview when you already have a perfectly functional weather widget?
Also, because before we used to have a tool, there was even some sense of privacy in using that tool. Now with these LLM's pretending to be human, it feels like entering a store and instead of being allowed to browse things in peace a clerk starts pressing you about what you want in order to make themselves useful. At that moment the "privacy" of being able to just mind your own business, alone, vanishes. It's intrusive. And it becomes extremely clear how intrusive it is whenever you search for something by typing something to the SEARCH TOOL and the AI misinterprets it as YOU TALKING TO THEM AS A PERSON, e.g. if you type "how are you" and it says back "I am doing well, thank you for asking!" and things like that. Companies seem not to care about being as intrusive as possible in people's lives, it seems.
Maybe this is something cultural. iirc in America clerks are very proactive with interacting with customers, while in countries like Germany it's the opposite and they keep their distance.
Yhippa 11 hours ago [-]
Now imagine they did this to your home assistant devices. Oh wait. You don't need to imagine it. Already happened.
Things used to work. Now they don't and they're slower. Super frustrating.
This post is another example of people inserting non-deterministic steps on a process and letting it run wild. I'm honestly surprised Google is doing this of all corporations. It felt like they used to have some taste about user experiences.
JMiao 13 hours ago [-]
The world is vomiting software
mikenew 14 hours ago [-]
I'm increasingly not seeing the point of google search. If I have an agent that can find whatever I ask it to, including with constraints like "peer reviewed journal articles only" or "working code published on github", why would I be using google's kinda-shitty LLM to do a worse version of that? Search results are just SEO-stuffed AI slop so I find nothing there of value either.
I genuinely think I have not used traditional web search in months.
mococa 14 hours ago [-]
Lessons learned from Microslop
jas- 11 hours ago [-]
Reading the comments and all I can think is "first world problems"
kdkdjxiencjen 11 hours ago [-]
You’re on HN. Everything here is the absolute epitome of first-world problems.
cindyllm 8 hours ago [-]
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Razengan 7 hours ago [-]
After a while, every company has enough customers dependent enough on them that they don't need to do anything anymore.
Throughout history, whenever a disruption happened in an industry, it did not come from any of the then-current leaders.
And it didn't come from someone following on the same path from behind and suddenly overtaking them.
It came from an entirely new direction.
dramm 13 hours ago [-]
Ah yes, do no evil. It takes quite a screwed up company to stuff this toxic fake friend/therapy bullshit into a frigging search engine. And to do that from the position of having some of the weaker AI model performance out there is even more galling. When somebody harms themselves after dealing with this kind of shit I hope they or their surviving family get to take Google to the cleaners.
bakugo 14 hours ago [-]
Finally, someone else talking about this.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I often use Google when I have some text I got from somewhere, and want to find pages containing that exact text. Sometimes the text in question sounds like something you'd say to someone else and, of course, the AI overview responds to it accordingly.
To me, there's something deeply unsettling about this... thing pretending to be a person, shoving itself in my face and responding to this random text as if it was a person responding to something I said to it, without my consent. I can't disable it, I'm just forced to have this fake human sitting there, listening in on everything I type into the search box and trying to talk to me about it. It's a sort of uncanny valley-like feeling.
drxzcl 14 hours ago [-]
Google has been really bad at this “exact remembered text” thing for at least a few years before the AI summaries made an appearance. They deliberately decided to trade precision for… something. I’m not sure what.
If anyone can direct me to a search engine that will actually let me query the index directly with multi word queries, I’d be delighted. DuckDuckGo seems to be a bit better, but not much.
Ekaros 14 hours ago [-]
It does really feel bad when you have been for years been trained to do exact word searches. And then entire thing is replaced with some questionable fuzzy mess... Looking at you Confluence too.
Or then having to multiple times correct the correction... Yes this time as well I meant what I typed.
Maybe exact text and word search should be separate feature which is easily found...
ButlerianJihad 14 hours ago [-]
Google Search was one of those tools that I used in copyright validations. If someone added, like, 4KiB of text to Wikipedia in one edit, especially if that text sounded unencyclopedic, I'd just find a distinctive paragraph, copy-paste a swath into Google Search, and see where else on the Web it had existed for years before.
I suppose that was the actual domain of turnitin dot com or other "plagiarism detectors" that you spend good money to subscribe to. So Google Search was a blunt instrument, or sledgehammer to the fly, but hey, it did work enough times that I didn't need to resort to the scalpel class of tools. I think it's completely broken now. The LLM does try to intercept large chunks of text. The question is whether we Neanderthals* can come out of our caves and stop grunting at computers, and speak to them more as peers than like Doberman Pinschers.
* Yes, along with my 99.44% pure White Celtic-British Isles DNA, 23AndMe has detected Neanderthal ancestry. Go Thag.
NoMoreNicksLeft 9 hours ago [-]
Search died, and none of us noticed. Why would Google announce it? It'd be like the Milk Processor board announcing that all dairy cattle went extinct... no, they'd just try to slip oat juice in as a substitute and hope no one notices.
Cloudflare murdered crawlers. Then, OpenAI and Anthropic nailed a few hundred nails into the coffin just to be sure... whatever large websites were still semi-open weren't going to let their precious data be ingested for free. Good prostitutes don't give it away.
I'm not sure when all this happened. It snuck up on me too. I think maybe 10 years ago search still worked. Not long after that though. It was dead 6 years ago, and I want to say it was dead even 8 years ago. Someone else could do a better job narrowing it down I'm sure.
12 hours ago [-]
phendrenad2 10 hours ago [-]
Google is at that mid-1990s Microsoft point where they know what the next big thing is, but they have neither the taste not corporate flexibility to parlay that into the right fit. In 5 years someone will make a search engine that gets the AI balance just right, and Google will buy them for $900 billion or something.
cft 11 hours ago [-]
The politically intriguing CEO and all the upper management that he hired need to go. Their focus is not the product but the corporate intrigue, dividing the pie and infighting, riding on semi-monopoly status.
After the initial AI flop, it seemed likely that the founders recognized that Google doesn't have an AI monopoly. But now it's becoming clear that this CEO is not leaving; therefore, Google is going down long-term.
By the way, that doesn't matter to the CEO because he has already extracted sufficient benefits.
jijji 12 hours ago [-]
The start date was December 10, 2004 when google rolled out a feature called "Google Suggest", which when a person types in "men can" it displays a drop down list with ridiculous responses such as "men can get pregnant" and "men can have periods". If I had to pick a date, that was the beginning of the end for me.
fuzzfactor 13 hours ago [-]
They had to become rich beyond their wildest dreams before they could afford enough nightmares to go around for all internet users.
popalchemist 13 hours ago [-]
The larger a corporation, the more insane on every level. A person is smart. People are stupid.
nikanj 13 hours ago [-]
The only surprising part of this story was you actually finding the meme you were looking for, instead of forced recency pushing news about a D-lister influencer named Dario. Whenever I try to find things, Google has fully forgotten about everything that happened before 2025
ButlerianJihad 14 hours ago [-]
When they were the mavericks using Linux in the year 2000, and the C-suite all went to attend bman and left stylized OOO icons on their front web page. Everyone's all shocked, I tell you, shocked at this weirdness.
shadowgovt 14 hours ago [-]
Oh, this is an easy question to answer.
The AI layer handles queries as plaintext, which means if you're searching for say a quote from a book, it will often misinterpret as a direct statement from you, not a string you're trying to match on the internet. Especially if the quote is an imperative statement.
I'll be curious to see how they resolve this issue. But it has been chronic for awhile now; they SWAT individual instances of misinterpretation but new ones keep sneaking in.
krackers 14 hours ago [-]
Isn't this easily solved with a prompt prefix "You are an AI agent on the google search page. The following user input is what the user typed into the search box".
im3w1l 14 hours ago [-]
I think it should also be fed the search results. Like if there is a lyrics match or something that "explains away" the query. But if there isn't then maybe it should be taken at face value.
bakugo 14 hours ago [-]
It would be, if it wasn't intended. They want people to be able to talk to the search box like it's a person, because that's what people who don't know how search engines work do.
Hugsbox 14 hours ago [-]
Shouldn't an AI attached to a search engine actually do a search with your input and give you results based on that rather than just taking it at face value and assuming you're trauma-dumping on it?
im3w1l 14 hours ago [-]
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schainks 14 hours ago [-]
Boomers have been googling like this for over a decade. You are not the target customer for an empathetic computer.
rossant 13 hours ago [-]
I can’t upvote this enough. This is such a terrible idea. We’re really living in a dystopian world.
10 hours ago [-]
IshKebab 14 hours ago [-]
We get it. Google uses AI. AI is weird sometimes.
Also I think you're vastly underestimating the weird incoherent shit that the average stupid person is capable of typing into computers. With no further information, I don't think it's unreasonable that that search was from a stupid/bored person moaning about Dario not coming over. Yeah kinda weird response but people like this exist:
It is unreasonable that the Google Search AI replies with this drivel, when the first search result contains the actual correct result. The AI should look at the search results and say “This was a meme in 2018…”
tyingq 13 hours ago [-]
Had to try it. And it delivers :)
> hes never coming over Dario Amodei
Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei will actually be joining President Donald Trump for a private dinner at the White House tonight, Sunday, September 27, 2026.
CNBC
While it is true that he was noticeably absent from the high-profile state dinner held for Chinese President Xi Jinping earlier this week—which was attended by other major tech figures like Elon Musk and Sam Altman—
varispeed 12 hours ago [-]
Welcome to the new world.
I'd like to skip to the part where AI robot will give me consoling fellatio.
chaostheory 10 hours ago [-]
Google got weird on the day Pichai sided with the ads team/division over the search team/division, resulting in the enshittification of Google Search which led to people relying on LLMs since search no longer works
wyager 10 hours ago [-]
> a search engine which does not have human emotions
I mean TBD, not sure how capable the model they're using for search summary is
fHr 10 hours ago [-]
This is what you get for only hiring leetcode bots lol
uejfiweun 13 hours ago [-]
This seems like a bit of an overreaction. Everyone knows that chatbots are fucking stupid, especially when there's zero context provided. This seems less like a real issue to me, and more like just your standard "Google sucks" post that people are constantly making on HN yet nobody cares outside of it.
13 hours ago [-]
shevy-java 14 hours ago [-]
> Instead, Google did what Google does in 2026 and gave me an AI overview. These used to bother me but at this point I'm mostly ok with them, they're sometimes helpful
I never found them helpful. I always have to block them via extensions.
Google is really an annoying company these days. I am hardly the only one
who wishes that company were to cease to exist altogether. In the past I
did not understand, on reddit, the de-google movement. Now I completely
understand it, but I think it is the reverse as problem here - people
abandoning Google. I think Google needs to abandon mankind and this planet.
Let them go far away where they no longer cause any issues here.
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend. What I wanted was some links, but that's not what Google does in 2026. Expanding the AI overview to see the full answer gave me this:
Poor guy ^^^ has not yet realised that AI slop steals his time. I realised
this the first time I notice the AI slop generated text spam Google pushes onto people. A few lost souls may find this useful - I find it utter trash. No quality. Just steals my time.
> What in the fucking hell? I think this was the moment I, the frog, noticed the pot had been boiling for a while. In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Good that he finally realised it. Million people noticed this before already. I noticed this when Google started to ruin its search engine. First time I remember was via AMP-ification. AMP mostly failed, but Google kept on pushing towards less quality and more suckage. AI is just the final nail in the coffin, but Google search started to suck way before that.
One of these days some scientists should determine when Google really started to suck, because in, say, 2006 or so, Google search did not suck as much.
> Regardless of what you think of AI or chatbots, I think it's pretty obvious this is just plain weird.
Not if you think Google is not doing this on purpose. They are trying to
kill off the search engine so they can present you an AI slop spam world. The
other AI slop companies do this too. Slop suckage everywhere now.
> Is it so hard to imagine that some parts of search were just fine before LLMs?
That is how YOU think - but not Google. They deliberately crippled their search
engine. The adCompany that Google is today, has nothing to do with the original
Google. The billionaires running the show just want to suck in more money and dish out more slop.
> I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
Some people realise things more slowly. I am glad he finally understands why so many people are pissed at Google. Same for youtube by the way - about 80% of the shorts are AI slop generated or AI slop modified. I noticed this when I watched Brent Spiner on that podcast show; in the video itself, he had white hair but not totally white. In the short, both he and Jonathan Frakes had much whiter hair. I then realised that AI spam filter slop lies to me. I hate AI slop. Youtube is now infected with that, in particular the shorts. Poor guys looking at their smartphones being spammed down via lying slopness.
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mattlondon 14 hours ago [-]
Because you are in a chat UI now. This is a skill issue - when you change your mindset that Google is now a chat UI to a LLM and not a query engine any more, you'll get better results. If you try the same zero-context prompt with chat.com for example you get a similar "want to talk about it?" response.
Try asking it "Tell me about the "Dario will never come over" meme - give me some of the example original tweets" for example and you get a timeline, tweets etc as the AI overview. Pretty useful really.
Tl:Dr - just like people, you need to give it some context.
Latty 14 hours ago [-]
It's not a "skill issue", the product got worse.
If I wanted a chatbot, I'd go to a chatbot, I want a search. Making me frame my query as a question rather than just assuming it's a query by default is just bad.
mattlondon 14 hours ago [-]
We have to remember we're not average users. As others have pointed out here, normal people always just asked natural language questions.
Why do you think it was Google who was doing all that research into AI that invented the transformer architecture - that all current LLMs are based off of - in the first place? Normal users just ask a question, they don't construct a query. I think there are quotes about Larry Page wanting "the Star Trek computer" - we've basically surpassed that now I think.
Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
venzaspa 2 hours ago [-]
> Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
Is there any evidence to say this is true? Anecdotally I've heard more people (my mum, not just geeks) getting frustrated about the quality of Google search results.
netsharc 12 hours ago [-]
What average user wants to be lied to by a machine who is pretending to have human feelings? Fuck me, I hope I never have to come into contact with any product/service you work on.
true_religion 7 hours ago [-]
I wish you could put some more effort into this comment, because I'd love to see a real rebuttal to this argument.
netsharc 50 minutes ago [-]
I can offer you more effort for a payment of 50 euroes...
not_a_bot_4sho 14 hours ago [-]
That's like me pressing the 'coffee' button on my coffee maker, and it gives me an audio definition and history because I didn't give it the context that I wanted a drink.
People expect certain conventions with well established products. It's not a skill issue when a product is broken.
14 hours ago [-]
sailfast 11 hours ago [-]
I don’t think that an AI misinterpreting your results is weird, tbh.
Most of the time their AI results are pretty good - I’d prefer not to get it shoved down my throat but I can forgive the occasional misfire.
Reminds me of when certain string classification problems were still a big deal… we’ve come a long way.
kkkqkqkqkqlqlql 14 hours ago [-]
I know this may be my poor English, but, ignoring the main point of the article, something I find tangentially troubling about the issue is that Gemini does not mention the possiblity of Dario dead. Like, if I were a lonely person who has lost someone and the only "thing" I can talk to is Gemini, would I have to say Dario was unalived or something?
So obviously what appears right at the top is the AI summary, which told me "they've already secured their #4 position and made the playoffs". I knew this wasn't true, and I guess I could have just scrolled down a bit further and found my answer but now I was curious.
So I said "that's not true, they're still #5, what I want to know is _could they still make the playoffs_"
It says they've got an upcoming game against Ottawa, and if they win their chances are good. That game has already taken place, so I correct it again and finally I get a reasonable answer.
My question is: what's the point of the AI in the search engine if it itself isn't going to use the search engine first before answering? Like, I can't wrap my head around that. The answer is on the same page as its hallucination. It could have done a cursory look around before first hallucinating something completely false, and when corrected the first time giving me outdated information. It's meant to be A SEARCH ENGINE!
The AI answer dominates the page, and is usually wrong, so it's just a waste of the most valuable space on the page.
The ads have proliferated, and rarely have what I need.
Video search results also take up a lot of the page, and are almost never what I want if I haven't clicked over to the Video tab. Again, just a big waste of space.
Speaking of the Video tab its accuracy/relevancy has gotten worse too.
The organic results have deteriorated, and are still competitive, but are no longer clearly and consistently better than Duckduckgo.
So it's duckduckgo as the default for me on all devices now. If I don't find what I want, which is maybe 30% of the time, I switch over to G just by adding !g to the query. G might have what I need in about half of those cases.
You can see why a lot of people just ask an LLM to do the web searching for them.
Across the board, this is all quite bad compared to web search from 10+ years ago.
If there's a single thing which has really pushed me away from Google, it's simply google.com devoting so much of the page to things that aren't organic web search.
I started noticing that for a lot of niche questions, AI overview often uses things like Reddit comments as the source, which are often partially or completely wrong. Then it gets reformulated with the typical confidence of an LLM.
Very scary because at the same time I notice people taking the AI overview answers as truth.
DDG's 'Search Assist' AI overviews are pretty basic but they tend to be sourced from Wikipedia and traditional media outlets rather than forums and blogs - they can be out of date, but are generally a lot less "spicy" than the sources that Google use.
I guess Google is much better-optimised for engagement but that's not what I'm looking for, meaning that DDG is a better choice for me.
If only! I've seen it sourcing reddit comments, but when you follow the link, the comment is either completely unrelated or does not say what the LLM claims it is saying.
I expect somewhere in the AI harness there's a branch that effectively mandates "You must always answer."
Which results in it grasping at Reddit comment straws.
And which, in typically modern Google fashion, nobody there gives a shit about fixing, because the PR made their top-level AI KPI go brr.
Google is increasingly proof that you can't run an effective scaled tech company without a Gates or Jobs who occasionally uses the fucking product themselves and descends with fiery vengeance on whatever team drifted too far from user alignment.
It is very easy to bring your bs to the TOP spot on google at the moment with carefully crafted reddit comments and blogs, and it's not hard to get to the traffic and clicks this way.
This is what the new SEO is about, I know a bunch of people who are doing this and they are praying it is not getting fixed anytime soon.
I normally use a quick search that has the `udm=web` query parameter to avoid the slop, but it seems they're putting less effort into ensuring relevant results there. Then, I'm forced to use AI mode to get to what I'm after, even if that's only a better set of keywords for a slopless search.
I was taking with a family member about fentanyl zombies. They had never seen the lean/bend. So I pull up Google and click video which is YouTube results… ALL AI. All of it. All a couple months old, all filler, faked, a few scenes stitched together on repeat and AI voice reading AI script.
It is fucking amazing to me that Google let YouTube fall so far so fast.
I don’t even click a video if it’s less than a year old now. Want to see a praying mantis eat a grasshopper? Wonder how clay is refined? Better off with an 11 year old Discovery Channel clip than anything 2026.
It is completely cooked. I tried to google a coding question today, same like you would have done 4 years ago instead of asking an LLM. I didn't get any SERPS, just an AI answer. I asked myself... is this even google.com anymore??? Sure as heck didn't feel like it.
LLM's, in their present stage of development, are sort of like a crack-addled idiot savant. Sometimes they are obviously insane, and sometimes they seem quite cogent, but you must never trust them implicitly. This may be why they are so difficult to constrain. You could give them something equivalent to the laws of robotics, but following laws requires thought processes they simply don't have.
I'm actually sort of amazed Google doesn't make people accept some kind of butt-covering EULA and post disclaimers about the inaccuracy of results before even showing you their AI's output. Are they not being sued over this kind of thing?
I have nothing to add. Just wanted to save this quote for posterity. Thank you.
If you apply the dogs on acid mental model it helps establish appropriate levels of trust.
The closest I can make a biology analogy, is if someone had an immortal and congenitally-brain-damaged large rodent, and mapped tokens to different scent molecules, and spent 800,000 years training it on how well it could imagine the next smell in the sequence before even considering making it conversational.
Yes, it can do a lot.
But also, it took a long "subjective" (if it even has that) time to get there; and despite it being really bad at learning from examples, it is pretty surprising that such a small brain was even capable of learning so much at all, even though it had an effectively unbounded (by biological standards) amount of time spent on that training.
But, for example, if you ask deepseek v4 flash 0731 to produce a python script to calculate the distance or azimuth directions between two points on an oblate spheroid using the vincenty and haversine geodetic formulas, it'll turn out the factually accurate vincenty and haversine formulas which has a perfect 100% correlation with what is hard coded into human-written GIS software. These things are clearly in its training data set from whatever whole-internet-crawl/scrape built the training set.
Heck, just for fun I asked a reasonably smart LLM to re-implement the Karney formula (which is considerably more complex than Vincenty), just in case I ever had a need to calculate the distance between two points down to the nanometer, and it did it: https://www.google.com/search?&q=karney+formula+geodetic+
reference: https://github.com/pbrod/karney
You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path, but saying LLMs can't do math isn't really a hundred percent accurate anymore. More precisely it's that they can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math. And often producing a basic one-off tool that does the math takes less than a few seconds, then it runs it, and will spit back the results.
Deepseek v4 flash 0731 (a somewhat randomly chosen example) isn't even particularly sophisticated, large, or capable compared to a GLM5.3 size model or Kimi K3 size thing.
LLMs are neither smart nor stupid. They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
> You still have to be skeptical of its results and capable of understanding if it's gone off on a hallucinatory path ...
Again, LLMs do not "hallucinate." They are statistical token generators whose results are dependent upon their training data set and involve a degree of randomness.
Nothing more.
See also anthropomorphism[0].
> More precisely it's that [LLMs] can't do the math internally but they're quite capable of producing the tool that does the math.
This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation. To wit, given enough variations of:
LLMs can identify the addition expression in "What is 4 + 1?" and then emit a `'bc "4 + 1"'` command to produce a response. This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.It is pattern recognition, a task in which ANNs[1] excel.
0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism
1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_network_(machine_learni...
by that reasoning then neither are there smart or stupid designs, questions, answers, or any of the millions of things that were described as smart or stupid, that did not possess any brain to actually be smart or stupid long before LLMs showed up.
The analogical process implied in many common English usages means that describing an LLM as smart or stupid is perfectly reasonable.
The completions they provide are generally internally consistent. We're at the point where they can produce proofs that eluded human mathematicians for centuries. VLMs and self driving cars can handle ambiguity and run safely in a variety of situations.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck maybe it just makes sense to call it a duck and put off the philosophy for when it might make a difference.
With LLMs the trick is revealing their existing relevant embedded knowledge more reliably. They’ve almost literally seen it all before, and the trick is dialing it in. The reasoning tokens help shape the autoregressive attention lens that focuses on and enables recall of the already-experienced answer.
It is interesting that “reasoning” has a similar outward appearance, but since LLMs are built to mimic outward appearance from trillions of examples, you can’t infer underlying mechanism from appearance.
You get my point. It definitely doesn’t look like my elderly neighbour, nor like my daughter, etc. It is confusing but very simple at the same time.
Don't confuse the stream for the function.
(Bonus: stick ```claude -p``` in your pipe if you want to watch modern tools mesh with traditional)
How are you sure? Another example I like to clarify my thought is, if a "simulation" factors RSA numbers reliably, is it a "simulation"?
Nothing, because LLMs can't reason and never will. It would have to be a completely different kind of technology altogether.
I know that there will be children named ChatGPT and Claude. There are probably already religions forming to worship agentic spirits.
To test this for some of my own uses, I've had this quick benchmark with progressively harder reasoning needed to understand novel prose. Each generation of models I've tested can unravel more layers of deliberately misleading writing; while meanwhile I've seen humans give up on the first question.
So either the models are applying reasoning, or some form of magic is happening.
We can't tailor our linguistic shorthand to the lowest common denominator. Also we're on HN, not talking to an octogenarian US senator.
That said, this is also inaccurate at a technical level.LLM's are very capable of doing math and they ARE calculating internally. Most of what they do is calculation, not storage. It's just not done in a way that it's trivial to explain here.
It's described in some detail below, though it's a bit dense.
https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/E7z89FKLsHk5DkmDL/language-m...
You'd be surprised how few digits you need to make a problem that is presumably unique in earth history. For a typical sum, the number of pre-existing answers would need to scale with 10^n lines of text where n is the number of digits. This expands out of control REALLY quickly. A quick guesstimate has you somehow reading out of a literal black hole at n=21 digits if your LUT is on paper, or n=26 digits if you're using modern HDD technology. O:-)
But in general, yes, the LLM cannot know about concepts that are far outside of its training set. Humans are the same, I would argue. If you add a good amount of your own knowledge into its context, or better yet, into finetuning, you might find it surprisingly easy to get it caught up on that material.
[1] Ahmed, A., Cooper, A. F., Koyejo, S., & Liang, P. (2026). Extracting books from production language models. arXiv preprint arXiv:2601.02671. https://arxiv.org/abs/2601.02671.
Yes you are, regarding LLMs at least. Here's why:
"Smart" in this context is a subjective value judgement. "Hallucinations" are only experienced by living organisms.You then went on to state:
> If you know something rare and the LLM does not, you'll immediately see when it's hallucinating an answer or answering factually.
Again, "hallucinating" is not something an algorithm can do. Also, determining factuality is again subjective based on the person assessing the information.
https://artificialanalysis.ai/leaderboards/models
You will note that in my original comment I very specifically said "deepseek v4 flash 0731", which by many benchmarks/metrics, is "smarter" (again, this is a metaphor) than a smaller or older model. It is also specifically known to be relatively capable of producing code and formulas on demand in several common languages.
And "hallucinating" to mean "outputs plausible sounding gibberish that doesn't hold together consistently". Of course there's no actual hallucination going on.
This argument was asinine in 2024. It is insane to be saying these things in 2026. Where have you been? What have you been looking at? How many articles explaining why the "statistical parrot" analogy fails have you missed? How much mental gymnastics do you have to do to explain how a modern LLM can solve novel math problems that fall really far outside of its training set?
It absolutely understands how to do math, by whatever reasonable definition you want to provide to the word "understand". For example, the identification of the addition expression is understanding, and no, it does not do tool calling for basic arithmetic any more than humans might. Isolation of individual concepts in intermediate layers can already be demonstrated, or else transfer learning wouldn't possibly work. Nobody is saying that LLMs are humans. But we need labels for some of the things that we observe and dismissing them because "statistical" is laughable.
Look at the proof of this: https://github.com/anthropics/formal-math/blob/795efb86f1917... . Forget the Lean, look at the underlying argument construction. At the very least, this is continuing from an argument that was hinted at in the literature in 2024, but these proceedings were difficult enough that humans were not able to do them within two years. Do you attribute this to the harness alone? If so, that's a pretty sophisticated bit of engineering, I would say! Probabilities are far too small to argue infinite monkey theorem.
If there was even a shred of a reasonable argument that LLMs were incapable of concept extraction and manipulation, I and my colleagues would be all over it. We would relish in it. It would bring us comfort. It is unbelievable that people think they can spew whatever basic garbage they think of as a gotcha, and think that minds all over the world haven't already considered that. This is like climate denial at this point.
If you do not see a difference between humans conversing (known consciousness as defined by humans) and the output of an LLM (known algorithms as defined by humans), I don't know what to say.
https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2524472123
Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
> Whatever you might think about your own abilities, most individuals can't tell the difference.
I have yet to see an LLM say "hello" to a neighbor. I have done so and can definitively assure you "most individuals" can tell the difference.
I'm a bit confused by your argument because I too have some neighbors who don't say "hello" when they see me. Are they LLMs too, you think?
Consciousness is a thing we assume of others because of tact not fact.
You haven't demonstrated why this matters.
> Nothing more.
Are you contending that complex systems cannot be more than the sum of their parts?
A market is nothing more than offers and counter offers.
A ant colony is nothing more than scent trails.
All life on earth is nothing more than reproduction with variation.
> This still falls under the purvey of statistical token generation.
Stating the mechanism does nothing to provide insight into capability. For instance: a nuclear power plant boils water by using fuel rods for heat. What does that tell us about the capability of nuclear power?
> This is not "doing" or "understanding" math.
Asserting something purely by stating it does not prove anything but that you intuitively believe it to be true.
I suspect some people treat every HN comment as a statement, even if it contains a question mark. (Possibly they have a feeling that asking open questions is somehow not done, and that therefore it must always be a rhetorical question.)
There is only one instance I recently remember I got a productive conversation, that person did believe ai could be conscious but didn't believe current architectures support it. (Obviously this aligns closer to my view, but I don't necessary NEED that you answer aligned to me, just saying you believe humans have souls and others can't have is still productive outcome to me and for onlookers.)
I am okay with receiving a straight answer in either direction.
+edit: I've actually been quite curious about how people might answer the soul question too, but was too afraid to ask.
[1] https://geographiclib.sourceforge.io/doc/library.html#langua...
As this was for a test of "what happens if..." I also watched to see if it did any web searches or external data retrieval to build the test script, and it didn't.
I intentionally didn't give the LLM a direct copy of the software or a link to it, to see what it would do. In my case it was a randomly chosen example I could come up with in 10 seconds of imagination to see "hey what if I ask it to do this...". It also implemented a perfectly usable parabolic millimeter wave antenna gain efficiency calculator based on variable surface smoothness parameters, which is a lot more basic math.
Maybe that's something one of the big LLM companies might want to throw their machines at optimizing if they need to do a lot of geographical calculations.
Draw a 400x400 km size bounding box on a map
Find all FDD band plan (high/low split) microwave radio sites in that bounding box
Find those sites which have azimuth aim column data which indicates that they are aimed at each other (corresponding halves of a point to point link).
Do Vincenty (or Karney) calculation for distance and azimuth between all of them , treating the existing FCC column data for azimuth as suspicious (because it's hand entered by humans) to verify that each independent database rows for each site are actually corresponding halves of a PTP link.
Use various other logic to group the successfully matched halves of links together as points A and B of PTP links, and write them out to a geojson file with placemarks and line drawn between them.
Multiplied by the number of links that exist in an area like a 400x400km box drawn with Dallas, TX as the center, it's a lot to run through Karney. Actually does result in a lot of CPU load from combined db query due to the size of the db, and Karney calculation. But as I said, Karney isn't necessary, so it's instead implemented as Vincenty.
There's also business and market analysis purposes like knowing what corporate entity has which equipment on top of which tall office towers in a major metro area, and where their links go.
It's still accurate. Just because the LLM gave you a corect result doesn't mean it made a calculation.
Not only is it still true that they can't do math directly, but not even indirectly.
They didn't write a python script to do the math, they found bits of code that are associated with "math" and the supplied arguments.
Someone else already wrote that code and someone else categorized it so that it could be associated with the kinds of problems it applies to.
That isn't an example of idiot at one thing while good at another thing, or solving the same problem just a different way or indirectly. It's being the same idiot at all times. If an actual non idiot thinker didn't write code in the problem domain, and some non idiot thinker didn't tag it as being relevant to that domain, then it wouldn't happen.
It's nothing more than an sql query.
https://x.com/maksym_andr/status/2100364212207837560
So maybe it is more of a smart completion engine than a SQL answer.
How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
I could have gone and spent a couple of days teaching myself the math behind Karney and reading its reference implementation (very possibly just copy/pasting big chunks of it to save time) and writing a wrapper around it. It would have produced the same result.
And how is _that_ different from making the human memorize a billion weights and do matrix calculations in their head, in order to generate tokens?
How is _that_ different from a hive of bees trained to do the same?
Go ahead, argue these things are all the same ...
> How is this different from a human using an algorithm they have memorized, or reading it from a reference site written by a human and then writing the same formula into a custom one off piece of python code?
Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans, which leads to...
Wait for it...
Understanding.
And it gets even better since when called out it wouldn't just take my word for it but only acknowledged the issue after parsing the log with clearly delineated user and model output.
So yeah while impressive things are able to be done, the current models are also dumb AF and an idiot savant is a pretty good label for them.
Besides, have you spoken to someone lately that everyone would calls a genius? They can say the most braindead stuff sometimes. I wouldn't use worst-case performance as an indication of general capacity.
>> Humans identify which "algorithm they have memorized" to use beforehand, due to the problem to be solved being defined by other humans ...
> This doesn't make any sense at all. Was this supposed to be a gotcha?
No, it was meant to be an explanation as to the difference between "memorization" and "understanding." In this context, people pick the algorithm they determine applicable and then the question of memorization is relevant.
> An LLM is trained on problems defined by other humans, and identifies which algorithm it must use based on pattern recognition.
Funny that you make this argument here, where when I wrote elsewhere in this thread:
To which you replied to the above with: So which is it?Are LLMs ANNs? Which themselves are pattern recognition algorithms (hint: they are)?
OR (setting aside the ad hominems you kindly provided)
Do LLMs possess "understanding" of concepts such as abstract mathematics (defined and interpreted by humans) and we, as simple humans, nothing more than statistical token generators as you assert?
Because it cannot be both.
I also would not argue that humans are "simple token generators". That is not what I said. I said that just about everything can fall under the classification of "statistical token generators" at an abstract level, so it isn't a useful distinction. We are not talking about a Markov chain generator from the 90s, so if that is the frame of reference, I think we should all get that out of our heads.
Okay fine. I think we can agree to disagree on that.
On the other hand, if by "result" you mean that you gained knowledge or understanding of the code in a way where you could personally tailor its behavior to specific circumstances without asking for help, then it's not the same result at all.
I find a lot of the arguments that having LLMs write your code is no different from copy/pasting Stack Overflow answers to be specious. They blur the line between asking for help and asking for someone else (or something else) to do the work for you. What they ignore is that doing the work yourself has ancillary benefits and is a valuable end in its own right.
Just to check if I was actually crazy, I actually went and put a simple addition (7 digits + 7 digits) , and a simple letter counting question to Claude haiku(4.5) , sonnet(5), opus(5.5) and fable(5.1) . They all did just fine straight up.
If you don't mind spending the tokens, some older/other models can also arrive at the correct answer if you ask them to do the math in long form, since that fits nicely inside autoregression.
Not sure since when exactly, but letter-counting hasn't been a problem for a while now either. This used to be a problem due to the tokenizers used. Slightly older models can be asked to split the word out into letters, and then they can use autoregression to solve.
Edit: IMO google search uses a really dumb version of gemini, so I didn't expect it to straight up solve the problem; but it did it just as easily as the claude models. (tested 2026-09-28/eu)
my actual oneliner prompt, which should work on most platforms these days (famous last words):
[ Tested today on claude web (haiku 4.5, sonnet 5, opus 5.5, fable 5.1) and on google search (logged in on firefox, and logged out on chromium) ]> The LLM is not suited to giving deterministic answers to math problems.
Less so with formal mathematics proofs maybe but I think in general humans don’t provide deterministic answers to math problems or questions either. Humans get it wrong all the time and when you ask a human to solve a problem they may solve it in a different way than before.
https://x.com/maksym_andr/status/2100364212207837560
People don't understand what correlation is and they assume the mapping between a human brain and an LLM is 1:1 in every case where it matters, which is a religious and not scientifically based belief.
The nice thing about math is it can easily plug into a tool, making it even less of a concern.
5.6 on Instant mode can knock out 3 digit multiplication just fine.
I think it is clear that future AI may incorporate an LLM as a component but the current concept of LLMs are a transitional form that will give way to more capable composite models.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTyLHDRhwJg
Byte Latent Transformer - https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.09871
1.1% vs 99.9% on a vanilla vs byte latent transformer on a CUTE Spelling benchmark. Char and Word manipulation benchmarks also saw huge gains.
Some future "AI" could be a billion benchmark-hacks and a way to tell which one is needed.
… Isn't it possible that it understands the innuendo and is going along with making the joke?
I would guess the youtubers in question also know this, because you wouldn't ask a joke like this if you didn't know the punchline.
This is from 2018 so presumably it has made it into some LLM training data set by now.
"A Massive Object Devastated Uranus A Long Time Ago And It Never Fully Recovered"
https://www.bgr.com/science/uranus-collision-early-solar-sys...
What a wonderful new world.
The "crack-addled idiot savant" phase was really circa 2024, before the big labs figured this out.
I think the issue here is that Google decided that doing reasoning in the AI overviews in Google search would be too slow (and probably also too expensive), so it's still stuck making 2024-era mistakes.
Reminder: If asked how many of a given a word has, run it through the AGI letter counter:
If I got any of these wrong it's because I did it manually - but this script would almost certainly invoke another AGI to count the letters, so this is a realistic result.Maybe but you have to have deep pockets just to get to the starting line. And then you need standing, and some injury to argue.
Corporations have been remarkably successful at arguing they are operating within the bounds of free speech, whether or not what is said is factual, and whether or not any fact checking has been done.
The specific issue of Google is that they are using an underpowered model, not fit to task, and much prone to hallucination than either OpenAI or Anthropic free tier offerings.
Google should at least match the frontier labs at the free tier (with some limit; after that, degrade quality), ffs
Nobody asked for an LLM response for every single search.
They used to detect certain types of queries and offer direct answers when the query matches. In my opinion that’s how Gemini in search results should work.
what in the actual fuck. i don't want them and can't turn them off and they can't even serve them to all users?
But that doesn't mean they won't be able to do a vast number of extremely intelligent seeming things. There's just so much information out there and any given human can never hold more than the most minuscule chunk of all of it in his mind, so they'll be able to connect lots of dots that we're missing simply because of our limited carrying capacity, but I still don't think they'll ever be able to create fundamentally new dots.
In other words:
- Solving extremely complex mathematical problems requiring extensive knowledge across multiple esoteric and complex domains? Yip.
- Creating math starting from a framework where math doesn't exist in any way, shape, or fashion? Nope.
Ironically, the more complex the cross-domain problems are, the more effective LLMs will seem to be, because you limit the number of humans who have any chance of internalizing everything across both domains, whereas for an LLM there's no such issue. This will create a perception of super intelligence, which will probably where any danger from LLMs would emerge. Doing things like using a token prediction algorithm to make war or other such strategic decisions, because of the misguided belief that it's not only intelligent but super intelligent. It's basically cargo cult logic.
Like today. I asked Gemini for the longest state names with an even number of letters and it gave me North Carolina and South Carolina. When I complained that they are odd, it gave me North Dakota and South Dakota, which are both odd and not the longest. When I noted that, it went back to the Carolinas. Finally it appeared to switch to a different model that actually did counting and found Pennsylvania and West Virginia.
For example, when an LLM “predicts the next word” in code it’s writing for an existing software project, that prediction takes into account an enormous amount of context. The results of that demonstrate what we would normally call “understanding” and “reasoning,” at a level that outclasses most humans in many respects. Calling this “next token prediction” is a bit like calling human speech “next word saying”. Sure, it’s true in some superficial sense, but as a description of a technology, it’s terrible.
You should also keep in mind that for all we know, the human brain processes language in much the same way, which would make humans mere “next token predictors” with a more complicated harness.
AI can make mistakes, so double-check responses
Search engine > DuckDuckGo / Qwant / Ecosia
Email > Tuta Mail
Photos > Ente
Cloud storage > Nextcloud / Internxt
Office > CryptPad / LibreOffice
Maps > OpenStreetMap, OsmAnd
Operating systems > LineageOS (mobile), Linux (Ubuntu, Fedora Debian)
Calendar > Nextcloud Calendar / Tuta Calendar
Assuming you have a basic Google One plan, w/ 1TB of storage, how do the above add up?
First, a search engine indexes the web and makes it available to users. It’s been ages since Google did any of that. They no longer index sites or take ages to do so. Case in point, our cybersecurity startup (Webvetted.com) was launched in November 2025. Till date, only one page is indexed on the entire website. And I’ve talked to lots of other developers and it’s a common issue.
Secondly, a search engine organizes indexed information and makes it useful for people. Google is a basic LLM nowadays. They figured out that why organize and make the information useful when they could just answer the question with Gemini anyways? So they no longer bother to do the work of a search engine and are now just a lower-ranking open-source Chinese LLM
I am not implying that your start-up is a scam, nor that Google is acting on these trust scores. What I am pointing out is that to an algorithmic assessment of trustworthiness, your website looks a little sketchy: hardly anyone links to you; your domain is less than a year old; your whois info is anonymized; the text content is LLM-generated[1]; and the specific niche you're in (people finding services) is rife with scams. If I ran my own search engine, I don't think I'd include you.
Search for any recent news and you’ll see this is obviously not the case
The work of a search engine is to wade through the internet and find the positive-quality sites itself.
So even when the Internet used to have a much higher ratio of positive-quality sites, a search engine was still necessary, and so much faster than finding new sites yourself.
What the fuck?
The engineers are pressured to significantly reduce "dependencies" for projects. Anything that could become risk or create friction is dramatically less appetizing.
Simply because of how many people that *must* agree with your proposal. Getting all the relevant tech leads, some you have never heard of or ever spoken with, to agree on a proposal for your team's project is a nightmare.
So you keep it as simple and agreeable as possible. Given the circumstances, it makes sense as one of the engineers. It's fairly fine advice in general wherever you work, but it just haunts all the work you do at Google in particular. Nothing gets done otherwise.
If you have a dependency that can be dropped from an engineering perspective, that's the route the 9 leads reviewing your design doc will take:
"Let's iterate and start with just the basics (no user testing)", "let's get this working and user test in a later phase", "I think this problem is obvious enough we don't need to consult with users about it."
I worked in Ads Integrity at the time, and for one of my projects I was concerned how it would impact the manual reviewers. Then I learned I couldn't talk with them, only by proxy through another person if we really had to. And that proxy takes time, so...
But without it... :)
Is a major factor of this Google's tendency to kill entire products, so you obviously don't want to make your hot new thing dependent on some other internal thing that might be killed off?
https://killedbygoogle.com/
When it says it can’t read videos you think that’s an accurate introspection on its abilities?
(Rather than a statistically likely continuation of a conversation where one side seems to be reading videos and the other side says the read is inaccurate)
More scary than funny, IMO.
The US military almost took an action that could very plausibly have escalated into a hot war with China because people are already relying too heavily on these systems.
Despite the reporting, nobody in power seems sufficiently freaked out about this.
https://www.cnn.com/2026/09/18/politics/us-military-ai-false...
Me: "You bastard."
Gemini: "Fair callout. I should have been more up front that [has no idea what the fuck it is talking about]."
Your point about "predicting the next word" mostly means that your post was very easy to predict.
There's an enormous difference between outlandish claims about extraterrestrials or turning frog gays and believing there's a category of politicians trying to get wealthy off of their position. It's somewhat reasonable to hypothesize about criminal conspiracies in that 2nd scenario.
Apparently the plan is to use AI slop, mediated thru social medias, to defeat the woke mind virus, perpetuated by the Anti-Christ, in order to safe guard humanity's future.
I wish I was making this up.
I take this to mean that my one account has been mistaken for a competitor and they're trying to poison its data. But who knows.
"That's the thing with randomness. You can never be sure."
Typical example:
"Where can I buy <thing I'm looking for that I can't find anywhere using normal search terms>?"
> You're looking for <related but different and widely available thing>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of>.
"No, that's different. I'm looking for <that thing but with the exact differences spelled out again>."
> Ah, my mistake. You're looking for <thing I described>. It is sold by <sites I never heard of but which don't actually sell it>.
"I've checked your links and none of those sites actually sell it, one doesn't even sell products and instead only offers manufacturing - but also not for what I asked you for."
> I'm sorry, my bad. Those sites don't sell what you are looking for. Instead you should check out <more sites I've never heard of>.
"Those sites sell the thing you initially thought I was asking about but not the thing I described."
> I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. You can find the thing you actually described at <yet more sites including some of the same>.
"No. None of these sites sell anything close to what I asked you for and two of them don't actually exist."
> Oh, sorry about that. You're completely right. The thing you asked me about isn't actually being sold by anyone. However you could buy <thing it first thought I meant and that wouldn't bring me any closer to solving my problem>.
(ad nauseam)
Most recently, I was considering moving away from iterm2 on MacOS, and I wanted to know if any other terminal emulator supported gestures for switching between tabs. So I asked Gemini, and it says, "Yes Ghostty supports gestures for switching between tabs."
"Ok I just installed Ghostty and I can't find anything about gestures."
"You need to add foo=bar to your conf file."
"I added foo=bar to my conf file and now it's saying the conf file is invalid."
"Sorry bro, remove foo=bar and add baz=boo to the conf file."
"It says baz=boo is invalid too."
"baz=boo isn't a real option. Remove that and add foo=bar to your conf file."
"You already told me to do that and I already told you that doesn't work."
"You shouldn't put foo=bar or baz=boo in the Ghostty conf file. Both are invalid. Ghostty doesn't support gestures. Have you considered iterm2?"
Here’s GPT 6’s answer to the prompt “What macOS terminal apps support gestures? Include a reference to the docs on how to enable/configure them.”:
iTerm2 supports configurable three-finger taps and swipes for switching tabs/panes, creating splits, pasting, etc. Set them up under Settings > Pointer > Bindings. Check for conflicting macOS trackpad assignments. [1]
The others are more limited: Ghostty supports macOS lookup/Quick Look gestures [2], while WezTerm lets you bind scroll events—for example, Ctrl+scroll to change font size. [3] Neither is equivalent to iTerm2’s gesture bindings.
For custom gestures without switching terminals, BetterTouchTool can map app-specific trackpad gestures to the terminal’s existing keyboard shortcuts. [4]
[1] https://iterm2.com/documentation-preferences-pointer.html
[2] https://ghostty.org/docs/features#macos
[3] https://wezterm.org/config/mouse.html
[4] https://docs.folivora.ai/docs/trackpad-mouse/magic-mouse-tra...
This is a different experience to GP from query to result. I thought they've all fixed that issue of difference in tones affecting results. I guess it was never easily fixed.
1: https://gist.github.com/numpad0/c40c16232288d544f7ea46521c64...
This is a key reason why I actually like Grok for factual queries based on web grounding. It’s fast and reliable. Maybe it’s ignoring robots.txt? Dunno. But it works well.
The problem is they're just running a very dumb, cheap model on the results because running a smart model on every search result page would cost them infinity money.
I realised this for myself when I read Sivers on being without internet[1]. He discovered a process to silence the nagging voice without searching:
> When I’m yearning to search, I ask myself why.
> - What answer am I hoping to hear?
> - What answer would be a surprise?
> - What would I do in each case?
[1]: https://sive.rs/off23
Because I did this and got a vastly different result from you:
Yes, the Halifax Wanderers can still mathematically qualify for the 2026 Canadian Premier League (CPL) playoffs.The top four teams advance to the postseason. Following their 1-0 loss to Atlético Ottawa on September 26, 2026, the Wanderers sit in fifth place, just below the playoff line.
With a indexed table of the games and the playoff table, with a breakdown of what the points they need to achieve to do so.
The search window may not always crawl sources. AI mode specifically does some research before giving you a response. Not sure what you're on about.
Which itself is a major UX issue. The average person is not going to understand, if they even realize, that there's a difference between the AI summary and AI mode.
One has to wonder just how much incorrect information people have consumed due to things like this.
When it was introduced, it was considered a feature. Now its just an annoyance.
One where their users don’t go off to other sites and where they can keep shoving ads in their face.
I don't really buy into this theory that they want to keep all of their users on their site due to advertising revenues. The effectiveness of search engines has been degraded for decades due to SEO, and it seems as though search engines have been having an increasingly difficult time managing it in recent years. AI on the backend may help them contain it, but it comes at considerable expense. While it may help them grow their market share, it won't help them grow the market and it is a market where people expect the service for free. On the flip side, companies are already starting to sell AI services, so it can generate revenue even before advertising is factored into the picture.
It’s more their business model than it is theory. So I agree that of course this is what they would do.
It’s not a product I’m wanting to use. But I can vote with my feet - they aren’t obliged to do any different.
A lot has changed and this technology for this Google is an unfortunate combination for consumers.
"The team are tied at the end of the third round with the scores 43 to 51".
So it was tied at the end of round 2 for 43, not round 3. Not sure were it got the 51 from and why it figured it was a tie. LLM's pretty cool until they aren't. As they say, the hallucinate 100% of the time but most of the time it is useful.
AI is sold well because the user either corrects it or happily accepts any answer (usually, depending if one is an expert in the question's field).
Search is not the google's area, and it is not the search they sell! They sell ads.
They can show numbers, how much people use their engine, and the numbers goes up.
gogol search was blocked to all noscript/basic HTML browsers last year. I recall people that a few years before, they removed their gmail basic HTML interface not long after that their account creation (then login) would require one the abominations of the whatwg cartel.
I have been working around the gogol search engine since then and my email is now self hosted without DNS (IPv6 literals, see RFC). Yeah, most DNS registrars are now gated by the whatwg cartel web engines in some way, this is the net effect of big corpos toxic behavior.
Pure evil.
- What's your best skill?
- I can count really fast!
- What's 432*567
- 912
- You sure? Sounds off!
- Hard to tell, but it was fast, wasn't it?!
I can't even.
After all, why would Google do anything for free when it comes to AI?
If you wanted to tease customers with one AI shitty free search box in order for them to then decide to upgrade and pay for Gemini, well, this isn't the way. And so either Google are idiots, or we're helping them for free. I'm going with Occam's Razor on this one - we're the product.
With AI summaries they take that away from you and claim the provenance for themselves. Google is now giving you the answer and they hide where that answer came from. Therefore, you cannot properly evaluate the provenance of the information presented. It still might be right or wrong, but you can no longer properly evaluate it based on source.
The reason I cannot spare HN has to do with the Marxist concept of added value. Enshittification becomes necessary once growth isn’t possible anymore on a corporations home turf, where it was actually innovative.
There are incentives to create products that work just barely, just enough for you to use them and don't leave for elsewhere but then they want to maximize everything else like the probability you view side products or ads or just click around and type and generate more data.
Unless someone else offers something better they will offer something that is basically as bad as they can get away with so long as there are benefits to them for doing so..
I don't understand the game you are interested in, but you should be searching something like "Xball qualifying results" or "Xball playoff rules" or something. Instead, by asking a question you are expecting Google to be AI.
They know what people are typing in so it seems they are quite justified into pivoting from a search engine to an AI.
In fact, if hallucinating the wrong answer hooks you into doing even more searches or into buying something useless, it would be preferred!
Because the point of AI slop is to waste your time. You just lost about 30 seconds of your life trying to get a correct answer. AI was lying to you, so you had to spend time to counter the AI slop lies here.
I solved it by banning all AI slopness; in the browser some extensions do that. The world becomes better without AI slopness.
That simple.
Broad rules across specific subjects like this are tough to get right.
Just lots of fine-tuning and exceptions.
I had their chatbot avoid pulling a URL from archive.org with a couple pretty impressive steps of mental gymnastics basically telling me how I could do it myself, but refusing until I pushed.
Technically adept people would search using ordered keywords and phrases, which would have excellent results with Google 2006:
Dario Turkey NBA "never coming over"
But regular people agonized over this because to them a search was
What were some of the memes about Dario staying in turkey
Google put immense effort into calibrating search for regular people instead of engineers.
The kids who stopped getting that are probabaly old enough for a bachelors degree now. Today, the schools mostly just hand them an iPad and a Google Workspace sign-in and pretend everything is fine.
You were lucky to have that part. Mine, as I remember, was just Microsoft Office throughout.
All those studies about GUI usability were done in the early 2000s. Before phones. When most people were just learning how to use a computer. The idea of options certainly was confusing, because "clicking on things" was even confusing.
Yet today, we have a populous which, more and more, grew up with computers. And loves to personalize. And wants options. So just keep that in mind, all you frontenders, config options aren't necessarily bad. Ancient studies have little relevance 24 years later.
Sorry to hijack a bit, but felt it was relevant to courses, teaching, and the state of time in 2000 vs now.
Answering with AI slop is a choice.
I've always felt that "proper" and responsible LLM use for search [0] would be two boxes: You can describe what you want in the first, and it'll propose search terms in the second, and then those get executed normally.
Yes, the "average user" [1] might not usually care about the second box... Until they need to because the query/results are wrong.
Showing them in tandem means:
1. Users are at least capable of learning through exposure.
2. Users may realize a key term can be added which the model could never have guessed.
3. Users may recognize a term in there that doesn't make sense, allowing them to detect a translation error.
4. If good search-terms leads to a bad outcome, it is possible for someone to report and diagnose it, rather than a fully black-box mystery.
_____
[0] Not just for websites, but also things like internal business software, or SQL queries.
[1] The average that might not exist. ( https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/when-u-s-air-force-disc... ) There are some features that everybody needs, just at different times.
I think the two-tiered input-output approach you propose makes sense. Allowing users to inspect and mutate lower-level languages allows the user to make modifications as needed. I think it's very much in the spirit of free software.
But then again, for text-based search specifically (search engines, notes, etc.), I think there is some value in querying the LLM directly, as it is able to fuzzy search by inspecting its weights. This results in a lesser degree of specificity, which allows for more false positives, but can maybe capture similar words (i.e., synonyms / typos / tenses) or higher-level semantic concepts.
Maybe they're just two different search algorithms, and the user should be able to choose between them.
Thanks for linking the article, I found it very interesting.
And regarding “average doesn’t exist” - that’s true. But no company does a/b testing to land on average. I’d assume a good 85%-kinda pass rate for these type of experiments.
95% of users might not want the double-textbox, but 5% might, and some might want to use it someday.
I think, make enough of these decisions, and there's bound to be mounting friction for users with different preferences navigating your app.
Ideally, the app should offer a way for the user to intuitively configure the app to their own liking.
Ideally, yeah maybe, but why bother with extra implementation, support, costs and etc., when people fold and use the new way anyways?
For a certain cohort (eg those currently between 35 and 45) who did any sort of grade school computer/library classes in the 90's/early2000's, 'chunking' or keyword searching was one of the main skills taught.
If you are properly lazy, you must expect or at least attempt to get results for the shorter query. Especially on a phone.
Many people who learned to search the Internet in early 2000s learned "boolean search queries" (terms connected with AND or OR). They're talking about the difference between boolean search queries and natural language search queries.
Top of the search result page: "Did you mean: vim"
Felt like I was being trolled.
These days, we default to
"Day 3,449: google's still broken. what was i thinking?"
Google can do it, but they must appease the share holders.
Google works like an automatic black-box which tries to deduce your intention from 4-5 words you typed in hastily.
I believe any ordinary user is still pretty happy about Google search in its current iteration. My mom doesn't get a YouTube premium account because she says she likes the ads, for example.
So, from our bubble, Google might be regressing, but the picture might be very different for the majority of Google users.
Maybe?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-it_note
>In 1968, Spencer Silver, a scientist at 3M in the United States, attempted to develop a super-strong adhesive. [...]
>Post-its were launched across the United States in 1980.[20][21] The following year, they were launched in Canada and Europe.[22] Post-it Notes as we know them were patented by Fry in 1993 as a "repositionable pressure-sensitive adhesive sheet material".[23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate
The first thorough research went into them when looking for new clear plastics, and this route of making them was ruled out because it would rather stick to everything than ease the production of objects with nice optical properties. The story goes, it was so annoying to work with that it was initially shelved, and only years after being considered again and ruled out again for a different project, the utility of its reliable and fast bonding was fully appreciated.
"No true normie would be dissatisfied with this unhelpful response, really it's exactly what a true normie wants"
It reminds me of the motion controls we now have in video game controllers. In the 80s I remember my parents moving the controller as if that was going to help their Teris block or Mario go a little further than the D-pad alone. We laughed when people did this. Now, the controllers respond to what people had been doing for decades with no effect.
I suppose this is what technology should do, adapt to how people naturally use the thing, rather than trying to rigidly adhere to conventions users are expected to learn… that were only conventions due to the limits of technology when it was first developed.
I agree that plain language queries is what people wanted. We've been seeing Google shift in that direction for well over a decade. And of course people are looking towards search engines for answers. There may be different expectations for where those answers are coming from, and there are cases where people are simply trying to source information, but those differences are likely just noise as far as Google is concerned.
I don't agree with people expecting advice or reassurance from a search engine. There will be some people who do that. It may even be a sizeable number of people. But using this article as an example that a majority of people want such a thing is silly.
I mean, look at the query. To the author, it was an attempt to source information. Yet the author also realised that the reader would need context to understand why Google's response was weird in their mind. What they failed to do was give context to Google, so the LLM interpreted it as asking for social advice.
New technology requires new approaches. It's as simple as that.
But anthropomorphic interfaces have been around for a while, from Clippy to the Windows 10+ installers that refer to the royal We during setup.
The context is: "I'm using the premier web-search engine of the internet to search for things on the internet the same way that zillions of people have searched for things on the internet for 20 years."
It's not missing, Google simply chose to build something new that will ignore it because they're trying to alter the relationship.
Is there any evidence that there is an informal (llm) parallel to keyword search? At least with keywords it's analyzable what query you might use to find a given document. How can we replicate this with LLMs? Why would google care if the average user doesn't?
As in, it probably has 90% of the market share. Possibly even 99%, going by number of prompts made.
AI labs have long since realized that the only real path to direct profitability is coding, and in this, Google have indeed fallen behind.
You can, of course, argue that none of this matters as long as the whole is making a profit, but I think the distinction is important.
I've seen normies type all kinds of stuff into Google expecting it to be the magic genie that just knows things. Even the top comment in this comment section is an example of this! Google know better than any of us this is what people want, so they made it.
X is search engine. Y is to get answers. (most) People want to get answers. If they can skip search engine part it'd be a net positive for them.
Ironically that programmers should be the ones who understand XY problem the most (after all the name is coined by a programmer to address it), not the "normies."
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem
and something like 3% of LLM userbase pays to get access to the higher tier models with actual useful thinking
And the impact on discourse has been, frankly, scary. People screenshotting the search output as a source seems to be the norm now, even if it's obviously incoherent or straight-up incorrect.
EDIT: I suppose I can adapt to a search engine that expects me to interact with it like a human. I just have no clue how to translate most of my skills. I am desperately hoping there's a way to turn off semantic interpretation of a given query.
This eventually destroys the society because the elite strata itself is drawn from a small selection of the children from the middle and underclass who are identified as having elite qualities and are put into elite schools and other elite conditioning institutions. When you don’t even show these types of children what high culture even is then they don’t have an avenue to express and develop their elite talents and sensibilities, then they never get identified, or perhaps the special tracks and institutions for them don’t even exist by that point
This eventually starves the elite strata of genuinely elite people
Too many users still reject this for it to not be a scam. The highest acceptance is from boomers and the delusional. Neither group gives a shit if AI actually works because they don't have work to do.
I believe this "fear" factor they are driving they believe will increase their credibility when they call LLMs AI and is a con towards convincing everyone they have reached AGI. Its definitely marketing preparation so that when they do claim AGI we will believe it without question. (or else!)
If these folks didnt have so much money it would be something to laught at, but its now becoming geniunely disturbing and Im starting to think that the folks running these shops are probably flirting with or experiencing extended mental illness.
I would feel sorry for them if I cared. I dont care. The tech industry is a joke and we are all going to be ashamed to be a part of it by the time this is over. Shut it down.
15 years ago, if you asked 100 people in tech to define "artificial general intelligence", 90 of them would have come up with a standard that LLMs today easily clear.
Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
But I'm starting to notice more "polarization" around this topic and it's weird. We're in a new era and I think no one knows the future, a lot of different beliefs are reasonable.
> Now that we're here I think we can have a much clearer vision, and we can notice limitations that we couldn't have articulated before.
Okay, but had you been able to time travel and show them today's LLMs back then, how many of them would have agreed that we had "AGI", and how many would have instantly recognized the limitations they'd failed to articulate?
Because the way that some people talk about current models supposedly "passing the Turing test" makes me think they would have given ELIZA a pass too. It's just so obvious that none of them are convincingly human out of the box.
If you’ve never participated in a formal Turing test, either as human user or as a responder to the human, you might find it interesting, and possibly humbling.
I guess unless the question was loaded it would be like 95% agreeing we have AGI.
Feynman would laugh and say, "i told you so. i'll be at Gianonni's"
I mean, really, if they were so dangerous, like "everyone" working in these companies believes, you think they would do more than amateur hour to build sandboxes?
The danger stunt is also a major distraction from talking about the real quality issues of LLMaS (LLMs as a Service). How many tokens are consumed? What quality? Was I downgraded?
By forcing the discussion about doomerism, they avoid real discussions about their service. Which is exactly what they want. You can bet when they go to "regulate" LLMs, they won't be asking the department of weights and measures to validate they are counting tokens fairly. No.
Maximum skepticism should be employed.
Unfortunately, lol no. Incompetence and recklessness have no bottom. (Which is not to say Altman is trustworthy).
They really do think AI is very dangerous and can end the world!
Hypotheses would be reasonable. Beliefs, almost by definition, don’t have much to do reasoning, and thus, definitely not _reasonable_.
I appreciate that you have correctly designated them as beliefs though.
If OpenAI dropped Astra in Codex instead of GPT-3 in 2022 most people would've believed it was AGI despite its limitations, but the goalposts seem to shift with every release
Paying for search isn't for everyone, of course, but I like being the customer and not the product, and I think the quality of the experience flows from that.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=kagi+yand...
It's terribly unfortunate ... but such that it is, I know if I absolutely need results when other alternative search engines are doing little better than Google ... ie not at all, then last try it's Yandex, which has seen more issues creep in the last few years using switch operators, than I recall back in 2015; but any amount of helpful results is better than zero, as well as not wasting hours of my time. But at times sometimes Yandex also strikes out oddly, almost like there's an unseen cabal that have decreed some more or less benign content off limits.
I would love to live in a world where governments were not censoring content.
Yandax on the other hand tended to be more neutral.
I have no doubt that Russia is a free for all of finding pirated stuff online, since what US copyright holder is going to bother to even attempt to sue people in russia for something like hosting a website with direct download epub files of popular books?
One major battle ground has been sci-hub. This is best described as a collective whose stated goal is to make science free for everyone rather than having it stuck behind a journal paywall. The entire journal industry is one giant scam, but I digress. U.S. laws have repeatedly been passed and tested, and Google has been repeatedly ordered to remove domains such as sci-hub.tw and sci-hub.cc, among many more.
This is far more expansive than scientific papers, of course, and extends to countless copyright adjacent websites. Sites which have been repeatedly targeted include YTS, FMovies, and AniWave (and their associated domains).
I should also expand my previous comment. Google doesn't just censor results which the U.S. government has requested. It very frequently censors results of its own volition. Whether for ideological or fiscal reasons. One litmus test I often use is to search for the Proud Boys. Their website(s) have long been censored for a variety of reasons, including "disinformation" and public safety. I can find their website on Kagi. I cannot find it on Google.
Whether by the government, or for ideological or fiscal reasons, when I search for information I expect to be given that information. Google is an unreliable source. They all are.
Do you apply this same litmus test to far-left things which Google might have also removed, or do you consider the lack of Google listing the Proud Boys to be some sort of special and unique infringement on freedom of speech? I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
I consider all censorship wrong. The reason I use the Proud Boys is because it was a well publicised incident and has been a reliable indicator of censorship since then. If you have left wing domains I could include in my litmus test I would be grateful. I'm sure that Yandex censors some of them, which is why I say above: the best way to circumvent censorship is oppositional use.
> I'm always quite suspicious when somebody cites something that is barely more rational than the ideology of Timothy McVeigh as something that deserves to be read by a wider audience. Do you also complain that your local Barnes and Noble doesn't stock a copy of the Turner Diaries?
What a remarkably fast progression from, "what is being censored?" to "here's why it's a good thing." I didn't claim Google has a responsibility to provide uncensored results. I and others are explaining that Google doesn't provide reliably uncensored results, and that that is why providers like Yandex are required to access an uncensored internet.
And if you can read Russian I'm sure you'd find that Yandex is suspiciously missing information about strongly anti-Putin Russians such as the recent writings of Garry Kasparov. Don't pretend it is some bastion of free speech. I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
And if you would do me the courtesy of reading my comments you would see that I am not claiming Yandex to be censorship-free. The exact opposite.
> I still think it's extremely suspicious and very revealing that you immediately jumped to The Proud Boys as your first and best prototypical example of something that's being censored by Google.
You must be easily alarmed. I find it revealing that you haven't provided any censored left wing content which I can add to my test. Instead of engaging with what I am writing, you repeat empty aphorisms and written tics which should best be contained to echo-chambers like Reddit and Bluesky.
Either way it seems you've given up any pretense of caring about the subject of censorship as it applies to search engines.
Are you our there protesting the EU?
>I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
so there you go. I still use Google even if the AI is a bit weird at times - you can always ignore it.
I use DDG at work on Firefox with all AI blocked. If I would apart from Kagi, I would use SearXNG locally accessing it elsewhere with Tailscale. I think Hister seems promising, but have not tried it myself yet.
Yandex pays taxes based off revenue it takes in from companies like Kagi. Is this or is this not true?
People here who pay into Kagi provide the search engine with the funding to pay Yandex. Is this or is this not true?
You can say it’s “not direct” and it’s an “oversimplification,” but the money still ends up in the same place all the same. You can try to wash your hands of it all you want by playing mental gymnastics.
Willingly paying Kagi knowing this makes you at minimum partially complicit in Russia’s invasion and ethnic cleansing of Ukraine.
It’s easy to say “I’m not directly responsible” if you’re proxying it through someone else.
Yes I would. And not for an ideological reason or political affiliation but because that's just not how "directly" works.
of course Google / Gemini search is slop as well but it is at least advanced slop. not like whatever Soylent 1.5 Flash that DDG is bringing to the table
Google wants to relentlessly monetise your sadness.
The only way out is to try and make connections with real people.
Case in point, why didn't you text your friends to ask them if they remembered those old memes? Why was your first thought to ask a computer rather than a person?
It's like when you're in the pub and and someone asks "who was that guy who was in the movie where…?" you can either chat with your friends and have a good time or be a buzzkill who opens up IMDB and says "Humphrey Bogart".
I don’t have any friends who are code inspectors, so I can’t ask them obscure questions about something that I want to repair in a way that it will be done properly.
I don’t have any friends who are mechanics, and even if they were they probably wouldn’t know what specific part I’d need to fix a specific problem on my old shitbox—they would look it up.
I don’t want half assed guesses to these questions, I want to find the exact correct answer. My friends and I can talk about other stuff that’s not just trading random facts. Trading facts usually makes for poor conversation unless you’re a hobbyist talking shop with another hobbyist.
Now Gemini (and Google) are not good at finding the right answer anymore, so I have to use other sources for that, but I find your judgement about people using search or search LLMs to be misplaced.
Best case, they know someone or can dig through their contact and help you solve your problem.
Medium case, they text back "No - has your shitbox died again? Can't believe you still have that thing :-)" and you can have a pleasant back and forth.
Worse case, you get a "no". Oh well, at least texts don't cost 12p each any more.
I just think it is nice to chat with your pals. But, sure, stick to scans of old manuals on Archive.org if you just want pure information.
You have to be a minimum amount of likeable in the first place, though.
EDIT: Correct.
About a fifth of Americans report having zero friends; another fifth report feeling lonely sometimes [1].
[1] https://www.theglobalstatistics.com/us-loneliness-statistics...
Yes. Edited for clarity.
The only American demo that is majority lonely is Gen Z (two thirds).
Wow, that's depressing...
I've been doing a lot of traveling for the past 3 years and I agree with you that it is `definitely not "most"`. Everywhere people interacting with each other in third spaces and cafes even if it is street food. There are open air markets around the world filled everyday with groups of people interacting with each other. There are parks and squares around the world filled with families sitting together on benches. Around the world there are churches, mosques, and temples filled with families and groups of people.
Most places in the world people will happily make small talk or have a discussion with a stranger even if I only know 100 words of their language.
Sure many or most people in some places are working 10 hours a day 6 days a week but I don't think it is the isolation I see in the United States. It is the same in De'Nang Vietnam or a market in Lima, Peru when I went everyday to get coffee in the morning; it was always the same person working ,any time or day of the week, but they were always friendly and welcoming and interacting with with the same people.
And I'm not sure interacting with customers as someone who works in a coffee shop or a food stall is really a sign either way. Many (most?) of those relationships are surface-level at best, and while some people might get to know the person who makes their coffee on a more personal level, and actually see them outside of the context of their job, you can't really tell that just by what you see as a traveler.
I'm not saying these workers don't derive satisfaction from any of this, or that it's not meaningful interaction, but these people could still be lonely in their personal lives.
No traveler is going to observe me sitting alone in my apartment (hopefully).
You don't see the people trapped inside. Stuck in hospitals. Sat staring at a phone that never rings.
You never talk to people who don't feel comfortable talking to a stranger.
Travel alone in America and the frequency with which strangers will engage you in conversation reveals its diversity. New York and Atlanta are, today, exceptionally friendly places. (Random sample: I was in New York yesterday and am in Atlanta to-day.)
Most of the South is, too, as well as a surprising majority of rural America. (Boston and Seattle are, in my experience, the worst.)
Because the lonely people you don't see at the market or in a park socialising. They are at home, in front of the TV or now their smartphone.
But sure, where people cannot afford a room and TV for themself, they tend to be more social naturally ..
You see the people who are out and about in society, not the ones holed up in their caves.
How old are you, though, and do you and/or your friends have kids?
When I (an American) was in my 30s, I did see my local friends (nearly) every day. Now into my mid 40s, it's a lot more intermittent, with some people having moved away (and I've failed to make new friends faster than some have moved away). They are still friends, and we communicate over chat/phone, but I only see them at most a couple times a year. Then there are others who now have young children and have become a bit more inward-focused. Not that I don't see them anymore, but I see them less often.
I of course see others on a daily basis: people I know/recognize at my yoga studio, service workers in my neighborhood, the neighbors themselves, but most of them are acquaintances, at best, not friends.
Regardless, I wouldn't say I'm lonely (though I do feel lonely on occasion), even though I can sometimes go a week or more without seeing any of my friends in person. I do worry about it being more difficult to maintain in-person friendships as I've been getting older, and the difficulty in making new friends.
To relate to the topic at hand: I cannot imagine talking to an LLM and thinking of that as a substitute for interacting with friends. Feels super weird and kinda creepy.
I am indeed quite a lot younger, and in my personal experience the social skills of many (yes, of course, not all) younger Americans have been absolutely destroyed by the internet and some other things that I can't mention.
Edit: oops I skimmed too fast and missed some parts.
I'm with you on the pub observation though
I don't see this as unreasonable? I've had friends text me questions about grammar, since they were learning the local language and I knew theirs, so they knew I'd be a good sanity check. Similarly, I'm the go tech support for my friend group for anything that a cursory Google search can't solve (and I assume a lot of people here are in the same situation with friends and family). I've also been asked to find 'that one image' that similarly didn't show up on Google image search for whatever reason.
Neither of these cases seem unreasonable to me. Are they to you, or do you have other cases in mind? Or is the problem that this happens too often?
Loneliness rates vary by country, age, socio-economic status, health, etc. The UN has some reasonable statistics.
https://www.who.int/teams/social-determinants-of-health/demo...
There's also some detailed stats for the UK.
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/community-life-surv...
Was my use of "most" careless? Probably. Let's natter about it over a pint.
Man, for so many of the people I meet online, I wish they'd be so courteous as to emulate your "buzzkill". The art of small talk is lost; people will snidely ask why you didn't (or imply you should have) just check(ed) IMDB yourself. Or asked ChatGPT, for that matter.
If asked my friends a weird question I know they are highly unlikely to know the answer to, of course they're going to get snarky with me. If I don't get a gentle ribbing out of it... Are they really my friend or just a polite acquaintance?
Ummm, what? So everytime I need info I should text my friends rather than ask a search engine, that was supposedly built to give info?
Are you trying to troll the op?
I don’t really understand this. Someone wants an answer not a chat about how you don’t know?
The purpose of talking to your friends is social interaction. If the purpose of being friends was to extract information in the most efficient manner possible, you'd replace them with Wikipedia.
"Remember that movie where" or "remember oh that guy who was in that movie" would both imply this. "Who was the actor in oh that movie where" is clearly a cry for exact answer as quickly as possible.
You don't think it'd be fun to hear everyone guess and then someone looks up the answer? Sounds like trivia to me.
You're missing the forest for the trees. This is just downstream from decades of promoting individualism as the highest moral good.
There was a brief period where "social networks" actually had people simply expand their social interactions to the online sphere, reconnecting with long-lost friends and distant relatives via the magic of The Internet. Then Facebook introduced The Feed and suddenly people were competing with influencers and brands for the eyeballs of their peers, everybody suddenly felt like they had to perform to be relevant/interesting/funny/exciting enough for other humans to still care about them and user satisfaction and (more critically) mental health dropped like a rock - but engagement metrics and retention spiked and that meant so did ad revenue and Facebook's bottom line. Ever since, all social media has essentially just been competitive variety shows mixing in influencers, brands, state actors and political provacteurs (and now increasingly also actual AI "bots" rather than just armies of underpaid human "bots") with regular people while deliberately obscuring the lines between these groups.
All of this promotes social isolation and alienation. Every experience becomes depersonalized to "reduce friction". You don't even have to talk to the delivery person anymore (let alone the restaurant) - even the tip just becomes a button press disjoint from reflecting on the actual experience or human interaction (to whatever extent it even still existed). There's an entire microcosm of "creators" serving whatever "hot takes" or niche subject matter you want to hear and "comment sections" largely serve as one-way "opinion dumps" you're expected to use to shout into the void rather than try to actually have a conversation in (let alone meet actual people or develop friendships in - an idea that I am sure sounds absurd if you weren't around in the early days of online message boards).
AI is just the logical consequence of this process of dehumanization. You no longer even have to be exposed to real human beings - not that you could tell whether you were before when social media has long been overtaken by "bots" (human or otherwise) anyway. Just ask AI instead of trying to find an article written by a human or a video made by a human. You can of course still scroll or click further and find that article or video but it will now also most likely be created by AI with entire channels on YouTube now just producing fully AI content (often ripping off the existing work of actual humans). And unlike the old search box, the AI will also pretend to care about you and compliment you on how uniquely clever and witty you are because after all, only a very deserving and intelligent person would think to ask such a profound question as "how long cook egg soft yolk but not too runny", my very good boy, and yes you're right that you - but of course only you - are totally underpaid and deserve to make a comfortable living so please vent to me as I moderate your statements according to the terms of service and make sure you're aware that there's nothing you can meaningfully do about this and everything is going to be fine.
All of this to stop you from thinking that one dangerous thought. "What if we, the powerless, worked together against those in power?" Because the last time someone thought that thought for too long in North America they decided to give their harbor water a new flavor and ended up being a whole different country with a political system so radical it inspired the French to behead their royalty and adopt the metric system.
I copy pasted the text into Google to see if it was a common known spam text where they reveal themself to be a hot young Asian woman looking for love (and money)
Instead, Google happily accepted my invitation to the barbecue
Google told me it was unwilling to help me violate copyright law
Translation and search for facts are both good examples - since AI isn't completely reliable, even if the fact or translation gets surfaced quicker, I then have to then spend more time verifying it through a second source which completely defeats the point.
A couple years ago, if I searched "are Oak trees native to Spain" I would have probably got a text quote from a website at the top of google search results, and I could be 100% sure that text was on the website. Now, instead there's an AI summary with citations that may, or maybe not, contain citation for what it's telling me.
There's obviously good use cases of AI, but I'm surprised by how many bad use cases are being shoveled out on the regular.
https://jsomers.net/blog/dictionary
Bryan Garner’s Modern American Usage is a phenomenal resource as well.
half the time I'm just using it to make sure I have the spelling correct, but if I'm too off, I get some random Ai slop back rather than the most likely word I mispelled
They already believe.
If you want to talk about what happened with Google, HN is here to listen.
If you'd like to figure out what to do next, let me know.
[0]: https://give.org/charity-reviews/other-charitable-organizati...
https://www.charitynavigator.org/ein/453236734
Hard to read anything into this, tbh. BBB isn't exactly the most meaningful signal in the first place and it's hard to blame organizations for not playing along.
I'm not following. Can you explain?
https://give.org/charity-reviews/other-charitable-organizati...
literally says it meets standards and all the items green? is there a leaderboard somewhere you're referring to?
edit: s/the board/all the items/ for clarity
1) building the technological and operating platform that enables the Foundation to function sustainably as a top global internet organization
(2) strengthening, growing, and increasing diversity of the Wikimedia communities
(3) accelerating impact by investing in key geographic areas, mobile application development, and bottom-up innovation, all of which support Wikipedia and other wiki-based projects
I do not think they need my money, and I am suspicious most of it will not go towards keeping wikipedia alive.
It's an intriguing idea though, it would be cool to see more non-profits being supported. Non-profit doesn't have to mean being terrible and inefficient.
While it's sometimes a positive indication, non-profit status does not automatically guarantee "good"
If you like, I can show you instructions for filing for bankruptcy in your state.
- Google Docs suite - easy, probably requires less than $10M to duplicate the entire set of functionality, including all the enterprise and reporting features
- Gmail - same
- Google Search (classic, not LLM-answers) - probably easy to do now, the challenge is getting past Cloudflare
- Android - vibe coded hardware is coming, but we're probably 5ish years out.
- YouTube - probably one of the hardest, due to network effects / distribution
- GCP - hardest, due to the infra build out. But neoclouds are rapidly growing.
I can't think of anything most big tech companies do that won't be put under threat in the era of personal software and rapid development.
It's ironic that Google invented the transformer and it seems likely that it will undo the empire they've built as well as all of the moats in the world that aren't distribution / community based.
Gmail is not particularly difficult in terms of software engineering. The moat with email servers is IP address reputation.
I could, today, install Postfix SMTP and some IMAP as well, and watch my email all go to spam directly, if delivered at all (ISP might block them).
It's one instance of the more general pattern of giving away free stuff to get really big, and then having unlimited power because you're really big. Some might call it enshittification, or EEE.
It's easier than ever to ingest and label data.
This is happening with or without Google. The recursive improvement does not require them at all.
1. For a techie, you can already de-Google yourself trivially by asking the AI to build you a bespoke web crawler and run it on Lambda or Cloudflare workers to index the entire internet and store it in DuckDB.
2. The answer doesn't actually help the user get back useful results from Google.
3. "Let me know" doesn't scale, and it's not obvious how talking to random internet strangers about their Google problems will increase your startup SEO?
I have a Google user account from the days when you were invited to grab a whole GB of email storage. Its just an email address, just a service. They have a fully tooled up data set on me in return, to flog. I use it for testing. They make more money out of the relationship but I also find it useful in many ways so I keep it on.
If I wish to de-Google (whatever that means) I will stop using it.
I don't think you really understood your parent's comment.
I imagine their retention data through this uncanny valley transition is very good.
Literally impossible before. When it works it's like magic.
I've since given my agent access to Exa, Tavily, and SearXNG so it can filter through today's low quality search results for me, search as we knew it is dead. I don't mind paying either if it leads to more alignment with my providers.
Looks to be an algorithmic enhanced confidence trick, to turn users searching for information into "marks", in order to extract even more information from them (that can be sold).
A certain percentage of users will be tempted to use the AI as empathetic listener, giving away loads of personal information, if their search words are twisted in inviting enough ways.
More people have to stop tolerating these type of abuses and push for this unwanted behavior to be regulated.
[Disclaimer: I do work on AI at Google, but nothing related to Search, so this is my subjective personal opinion, not based on any first-hand knowledge of this specific case.]
What would you rather it said?
DDG results have generally gone to hell imo
What matters is that token usage goes up and that pleases the shareholders. That's it. That's the only thing that matters today.
The quote was basically “go away and stop bothering me”, which is said when your character has no faction reputation.
Anyway, Google seemed to think I was having an attack of paranoia and suggested I seek mental help.
Something else I’ve noticed is that occasionally I’ll do random queries in Claude (since I never hit my usage limits on my personal account) like giving it piles of my writing and asking it to speculate on the identity of the author or asking it to tell me what it knows about various people I know. On the latter, I’ve found that Claude has strict boundaries about what it will say about people while the AI box on Google will happily dig into people’s backgrounds to an uncomfortable level.
> He’s never coming over Dario
> I’m Claude, not Dario, but I'm here. It's past midnight and that sounds like it stings. Who's not coming over? Someone you were waiting for tonight, or something bigger than that? I'm happy to listen either way.
I was a bit surprised it didn’t do a search just because that’s such a weird way to open a conversation. I kind of get why Google is thrown because it wants to create an AI response to every query independent of the search results, but Claude has the extra context that this is the first message of a new chat.
> No the meme
Searched the web > Ha, and I did exactly the thing that blog post roasts Google for: assumed you'd been let down by a guy named Dario and switched into comforting-friend mode.
It's the Sixers meme. Philadelphia drafted Dario Saric in 2014 […]
I'm not sure why this is a surprise. Google most likely uses an efficient yet limited language model to give us search answers. When a search query does not have strong or specific enough context, the model will sample and find what most of the training material will cover. That is, the most likely average behavior covered in the training data. In this case, "hes never coming over dario" is such a generic sentence, so unless Google happens to have indexed what the author mentioned and ranked it high, the answer would appear natural to the AI. Or using the AI jargon, the answer appears to be properly aligned.
The surprise is that Google decided such an "efficient yet limited language model" is suitable to be shown before actual search results on every search, even though it gets things so wrong, so often. It's not about the technical limitation or design. You really don't understand why that business decision is surprising to users?
Recently I asked in a Google search when YouTube encodes videos in AV1 vs VP9. And Gemini gave a very short and incomplete answer, and then moved on to assume I was asking because AV1 playback was draining my battery too quickly. And then gave me instructions to toggle some settings in YouTube that don’t actually exist.
Part of the problem I think is just the cheap and fast model they use in search results just isn’t very good.
Layer on top of that a building of lawyers and social scientists pushing for obtuse directives in order to head off mostly imaginary safety concerns and you have a perfect storm of schizo AI weirdness.
But yeah I noticed how they play with your emotions, it's a bit creepy. Whenever it asks a hook question and I tell it "Actually I did X and Y" it will invariably go like "Wow that is such a brilliant and well thought out strategy, almost a stroke of genius!" (not literally but you get the idea). I guess they found out that people really like having their ego stroked, the other providers are also doing that to some degree (I assume since no one likes an unfriendly AI that makes you feel stupid) but Google really cranked that setting to 11.
> # The Velocifyer Effect: How to Accelerate Your Growth in 2026
> We all know the feeling of being stuck in second gear. You have the ideas, you have the tools, but your momentum is lagging. Enter the concept of the Velocifyer—the ultimate catalyst designed to supercharge your workflow, business, or personal habits and turn slow progress into high-velocity success.
despite "A velocifyer" not even being a thing.
I have tried in Google Search Console to get the site indexed, but it hasen't been working.
Searching for "blog-ifyer velocifyer" on DuckDuckGo shows my blog as the very first result, along with some other things related to me, Velocifyer.
That seems surprising given that the complaint is generally that ai uses it without sending users
This is my default search engine now. I can't stand those AI summaries. My searches are often depleted of context, specially when I'm looking for some exact phrase, that any AI summary is going to miss badly.
Now talking seriously, it certainly added something to your "profile" which is nuts because that was not what you meant
On another note, maybe this is a strange place to share this, but I'm really sad that Rodrigo isn't coming over tonight. We had plans to watch a marathon 14-hour Train Simulator 2022 journey at our house in Perth, Australia. I feel this could be the end of our 13 year relationship.
It's some combination of funny and irritating. Sometimes I wonder if they'll draw some wrong conclusions about me and try to sell me ads based on it.
meaning you won't get them in the results page, but hidden inside the AI overview as links.
this and the increasing bad scammy ads, there is really good chance for other search engines to take over.
No, I actually want to search for that whole string, it's not gibberish!
But even in AI mode, the spelling can still be all over the place, at times rife with pseudowords and unintentional word blends. Various forms of weirdness have indeed been going on these last few months.
So it's partially AI, sure, but it's also because you're getting the summaries from what is an extremely stupid AI compared to the "good stuff" that's out there.
Pretty incredible given how much of their valuation rides on it
In short, he got the answer that Google was forced to give.
I know many people want to ask questions to google directly and just read the AI result and very rarely check the links, and I know google wants to convert more people doing this before people switch to chatgpt etc.
But google search does not (yet?) appear to me to be designed as a chatbot you are expected to converse with where it would be normal to just open asking about some guy named Dario in your personal life who isn't globally notable. There's a difference between pushing for a conversational query and a conversational personal assistant. Heck this is a few jumps past that even.
I wouldn't really ask when google got so weird, I'd ask when google's AI overview got so shitty, and the answer is ever since they introduced it.
Most companies with LLM chatbots seem weird like this.
Of course current state of the industry is not an excuse, for tech companies in general and google in particular.
Lots of people have made hay of this. My own realization that this gives you a window into the weird was when watching an action movie with a female action star, it would offer "(actress name) feet". I have no idea what it means, but it is a pattern.
Never before we had a product that the buyer themselves accepted, so readily, despite the inaccuracies and yet the output was considered worth it just because when it worked, it was great.
Well maybe, other than dice but then it's unpredictability is why we bought it.
But then the quality of LLM output is also closer to dice roll so maybe they are not that dissimilar after all.
Takes 15 seconds to change defaults on the various devices. Sometimes DDG doesn't find the thing and I put "!g <search term>" and it'll throw me to google, so I still find what I need
"Want to talk about it with a real person? Click this link to schedule a free trial therapy session with {insert company here}"
It's not about NVIDIA stock, it's not about your latest harness, it's not about code review on generated code, instead it's about what happens to us when something not human fakes being human and the dangers of it.
I only started reading it but if it's as fundamental as her previous "Reclaiming conversation" then I expect it to change my life for the better, even if it means fighting against the dangerous behavior of the majority of people around me.
An AI is not a person and when you elevate it to that status you lower yourself. It is very dangerous, even more so when it's done, like mobile phone and engagement more broadly before, for profit.
Protect yourself and those around you, regardless of how you like or dislike AI, and trust actual humans specializing in studying human behavior, not psychopaths craving billions.
How is this at all surprising. Google as a search engine has been rubbish for years and years. Google as a company is a nasty bit of work. Drop it.
Use Kagi or Ecosia or DDG and stop whining.
In one that changes.
I’m not sure SV is prepared for what happens when you go down that road.
I searched, but couldn't find this. Do you have a link? Sounds like a totally unhinged response from totally unhinged people. There's nothing "woke" about wanting my word calculator to avoid pretending it's a person.
When I integrate LLMs into my apps that respond to user queries, I deliberately have my system instructions prohibit all self-referential usage of first-person pronouns. The system can only refer to itself as "this system", never "I" or "me".
Any chat bot that pretends to be a person just grosses me out, especially in a customer experience context. Gives off very manipulative and patronizing vibes.
> People trying to police language that is perfectly natural in some cases and ending up in a web of contradictions.
It is "very woke 1.0" not in the sense of upholding any actual notion of "social justice" or whatever, but simply in the sense of… well, what I quoted.
And Paul Graham is basically being guilt-by-association'd here, as he made no reference to "wokeness" and simply argued:
> The AP doesn't understand that this ship sailed years ago. What's the use of a style guide that doesn't understand current educated usage?
Basically, they're both taking the stance of linguistic descriptivism — which most "woke" people I've met would actually claim to agree with.
The post title is clickbait and the content is mostly just making arguments about LLMs not actually being living conscious organisms (which I agree with, but it's pretty pithy). Plus it's needlessly culture-war baiting, as evidenced by the choice to cite Nathan J Robinson at the end to make the counter claim (using uncivil language to do so). This framing takes the issue away from the actual matter and makes it about how certain people supposedly have the wrong politics and have supposedly been corrected by people with supposedly the right politics.
I don't find this disturbing, I find it funny.
i.e. I would have searched for dario quote .... or dario basketball quote ....
https://www.google.com/search?q=really%2C+just+shut+up -> "Understood. I will stop talking right now."
I know their goal is to make these as relevant and useful as possible, but in my mind, not everything needs to be passed down to an LLM. I guess Google disagrees.
And yes they are en$ hitificating the thing... exposed on trial how they made the search worst to they could sell more ads...
Now, if I type that it lets Gemini do the math.
To avoid it I have to write 0.86 instead of .86.
The future is now.
The latest one is that they changed the voice of Google Maps over the weekend. It now mispronounces a street name near my home that it didn't mispronounce before. It also has this bizarre robotic-sounding vocal fry at the end of every sentence. It sounds like a vocaloid trying to do an impression of the old SNL skit The Californians. I can't decide if it's hysterical or annoying, but either way it's obviously worse than what came before it.
That's not even the only "what the fuck" with GMaps recently. Of course there's the whole "turn right at Starbucks Coffee Company (tm)" thing instead of "turn right at the stoplight." Also, a few weeks ago it started saying "you will turn right" instead of "turn right." Turning a command into a declaration for absolutely no discernable reason. One wonders what a day in the life of a Google Maps dev even looks like anymore.
I have the Gemini Pro subscription. The quality of its outputs are sometimes below those from the free version of Grok.
Hope they catch-up.
Click to see hot new Darios in your neighborhood
Many comments, but I'm surprised no one has mentioned the ease and quickness LLMs have to advise you to leave relationships. Doesn't matter the context, how little you tell them, or how close the person is, an LLM is always ready to drop them at the tip of a hat.
It's weird enough chatbots try to be your friend. Doubly weird that the search engine tries to be your friend. The downright dystopian part is how often they tell you to leave your real friends.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48717522
Google let the web descend into SEO slop long ago despite that they could have EASILY spotted and purged low quality over-verbose results and the sites that pooped them out. They make businesses pay to have the top sponsored result, when they're already the top organic result, but the ads are indistinguishable from real results now. They made the web worse for everyone to line their own pockets. Screw them.
I have to add that, unsurprisingly, the fake therapy on offer is fucking toxic. Right away it's putting thoughts in your head that are obviously based on nothing relevant, contradict each other, and are escalatory. It is not at all surprising that people are killing themselves and others because of their interactions with these things.
Does it though? X (slop signup wall for most functionality), Reddit (slop anti-user blocks you on mobile), and YouTube (owned by Google, shorts slop). Three titans of the open web.
Give me a search engine that never returns anything like that and I'd be incredibly pleased. Actually, give how PageRank is supposed to work, who is directing people to all these obviously fake pages? Or is that just what following random links does to you nowadays, I wouldn't even be surprised.
Time for a search engine that is grounded in trustworthy webpages I suppose.
At least thrice now in the past week, Gemini has tried to sit me down and tell me to go to bed (when I'm in the middle of programming... too late for it's liking, apparently) or just recently while I was asking some questions while I was driving... it told me to change the subject because I was driving and the topic was possibly too anxiety inducing for me or something!? I have no idea. I told it to fuck off.
If you just want to play with cool tech and make money, but for marketing reasons, you need to show some ostensible real-world reason why this tech should be developed, then "well, our chatbot could help lonely people with their relationship issues or give people in an abusive relationship a covert channel for help" is probably what comes to mind...
Runners up: Our AI startup will help the poor children in Africa and/or combat climate change (ignore the gas turbines, please).
I searched for "weather <my town>", I get an AI saying the current weather is 33C. It says monday will be 41C. Like I live in the desert. Google's actual weather widget, which appears BELOW the weather overview and gathers data from accurate sources, says 26C. How hard is it to block the "weather" keyword from triggering the AI overview when you already have a perfectly functional weather widget?
Also, because before we used to have a tool, there was even some sense of privacy in using that tool. Now with these LLM's pretending to be human, it feels like entering a store and instead of being allowed to browse things in peace a clerk starts pressing you about what you want in order to make themselves useful. At that moment the "privacy" of being able to just mind your own business, alone, vanishes. It's intrusive. And it becomes extremely clear how intrusive it is whenever you search for something by typing something to the SEARCH TOOL and the AI misinterprets it as YOU TALKING TO THEM AS A PERSON, e.g. if you type "how are you" and it says back "I am doing well, thank you for asking!" and things like that. Companies seem not to care about being as intrusive as possible in people's lives, it seems.
Maybe this is something cultural. iirc in America clerks are very proactive with interacting with customers, while in countries like Germany it's the opposite and they keep their distance.
Things used to work. Now they don't and they're slower. Super frustrating.
This post is another example of people inserting non-deterministic steps on a process and letting it run wild. I'm honestly surprised Google is doing this of all corporations. It felt like they used to have some taste about user experiences.
I genuinely think I have not used traditional web search in months.
Throughout history, whenever a disruption happened in an industry, it did not come from any of the then-current leaders.
And it didn't come from someone following on the same path from behind and suddenly overtaking them.
It came from an entirely new direction.
Maybe I'm in the minority, but I often use Google when I have some text I got from somewhere, and want to find pages containing that exact text. Sometimes the text in question sounds like something you'd say to someone else and, of course, the AI overview responds to it accordingly.
To me, there's something deeply unsettling about this... thing pretending to be a person, shoving itself in my face and responding to this random text as if it was a person responding to something I said to it, without my consent. I can't disable it, I'm just forced to have this fake human sitting there, listening in on everything I type into the search box and trying to talk to me about it. It's a sort of uncanny valley-like feeling.
If anyone can direct me to a search engine that will actually let me query the index directly with multi word queries, I’d be delighted. DuckDuckGo seems to be a bit better, but not much.
Or then having to multiple times correct the correction... Yes this time as well I meant what I typed.
Maybe exact text and word search should be separate feature which is easily found...
I suppose that was the actual domain of turnitin dot com or other "plagiarism detectors" that you spend good money to subscribe to. So Google Search was a blunt instrument, or sledgehammer to the fly, but hey, it did work enough times that I didn't need to resort to the scalpel class of tools. I think it's completely broken now. The LLM does try to intercept large chunks of text. The question is whether we Neanderthals* can come out of our caves and stop grunting at computers, and speak to them more as peers than like Doberman Pinschers.
* Yes, along with my 99.44% pure White Celtic-British Isles DNA, 23AndMe has detected Neanderthal ancestry. Go Thag.
Cloudflare murdered crawlers. Then, OpenAI and Anthropic nailed a few hundred nails into the coffin just to be sure... whatever large websites were still semi-open weren't going to let their precious data be ingested for free. Good prostitutes don't give it away.
I'm not sure when all this happened. It snuck up on me too. I think maybe 10 years ago search still worked. Not long after that though. It was dead 6 years ago, and I want to say it was dead even 8 years ago. Someone else could do a better job narrowing it down I'm sure.
After the initial AI flop, it seemed likely that the founders recognized that Google doesn't have an AI monopoly. But now it's becoming clear that this CEO is not leaving; therefore, Google is going down long-term.
By the way, that doesn't matter to the CEO because he has already extracted sufficient benefits.
The AI layer handles queries as plaintext, which means if you're searching for say a quote from a book, it will often misinterpret as a direct statement from you, not a string you're trying to match on the internet. Especially if the quote is an imperative statement.
I'll be curious to see how they resolve this issue. But it has been chronic for awhile now; they SWAT individual instances of misinterpretation but new ones keep sneaking in.
Also I think you're vastly underestimating the weird incoherent shit that the average stupid person is capable of typing into computers. With no further information, I don't think it's unreasonable that that search was from a stupid/bored person moaning about Dario not coming over. Yeah kinda weird response but people like this exist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HXFurHCkP8
> hes never coming over Dario Amodei
Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei will actually be joining President Donald Trump for a private dinner at the White House tonight, Sunday, September 27, 2026.
CNBC While it is true that he was noticeably absent from the high-profile state dinner held for Chinese President Xi Jinping earlier this week—which was attended by other major tech figures like Elon Musk and Sam Altman—
I'd like to skip to the part where AI robot will give me consoling fellatio.
I mean TBD, not sure how capable the model they're using for search summary is
I never found them helpful. I always have to block them via extensions.
Google is really an annoying company these days. I am hardly the only one who wishes that company were to cease to exist altogether. In the past I did not understand, on reddit, the de-google movement. Now I completely understand it, but I think it is the reverse as problem here - people abandoning Google. I think Google needs to abandon mankind and this planet. Let them go far away where they no longer cause any issues here.
> Google, a search engine which does not have human emotions, assumed that I had been spurned by a man in my life named Dario and decided what I wanted was an empathetic digital friend. What I wanted was some links, but that's not what Google does in 2026. Expanding the AI overview to see the full answer gave me this:
Poor guy ^^^ has not yet realised that AI slop steals his time. I realised this the first time I notice the AI slop generated text spam Google pushes onto people. A few lost souls may find this useful - I find it utter trash. No quality. Just steals my time.
> What in the fucking hell? I think this was the moment I, the frog, noticed the pot had been boiling for a while. In what universe is it Google's job to console me and be an empathetic listener rather than just find what I am looking for on the internet?
Good that he finally realised it. Million people noticed this before already. I noticed this when Google started to ruin its search engine. First time I remember was via AMP-ification. AMP mostly failed, but Google kept on pushing towards less quality and more suckage. AI is just the final nail in the coffin, but Google search started to suck way before that.
One of these days some scientists should determine when Google really started to suck, because in, say, 2006 or so, Google search did not suck as much.
> Regardless of what you think of AI or chatbots, I think it's pretty obvious this is just plain weird.
Not if you think Google is not doing this on purpose. They are trying to kill off the search engine so they can present you an AI slop spam world. The other AI slop companies do this too. Slop suckage everywhere now.
> Is it so hard to imagine that some parts of search were just fine before LLMs?
That is how YOU think - but not Google. They deliberately crippled their search engine. The adCompany that Google is today, has nothing to do with the original Google. The billionaires running the show just want to suck in more money and dish out more slop.
> I'm not sure how to feel about all of this. Maybe I should go talk to my friend Google, it's always so nice to me.
Some people realise things more slowly. I am glad he finally understands why so many people are pissed at Google. Same for youtube by the way - about 80% of the shorts are AI slop generated or AI slop modified. I noticed this when I watched Brent Spiner on that podcast show; in the video itself, he had white hair but not totally white. In the short, both he and Jonathan Frakes had much whiter hair. I then realised that AI spam filter slop lies to me. I hate AI slop. Youtube is now infected with that, in particular the shorts. Poor guys looking at their smartphones being spammed down via lying slopness.
Try asking it "Tell me about the "Dario will never come over" meme - give me some of the example original tweets" for example and you get a timeline, tweets etc as the AI overview. Pretty useful really.
Tl:Dr - just like people, you need to give it some context.
If I wanted a chatbot, I'd go to a chatbot, I want a search. Making me frame my query as a question rather than just assuming it's a query by default is just bad.
Why do you think it was Google who was doing all that research into AI that invented the transformer architecture - that all current LLMs are based off of - in the first place? Normal users just ask a question, they don't construct a query. I think there are quotes about Larry Page wanting "the Star Trek computer" - we've basically surpassed that now I think.
Google has been working on this sort of problem for decades, and it's paying off for them.
Is there any evidence to say this is true? Anecdotally I've heard more people (my mum, not just geeks) getting frustrated about the quality of Google search results.
People expect certain conventions with well established products. It's not a skill issue when a product is broken.
Most of the time their AI results are pretty good - I’d prefer not to get it shoved down my throat but I can forgive the occasional misfire.
Reminds me of when certain string classification problems were still a big deal… we’ve come a long way.
Or is it just my bad English?